This Indie Life

[00:00:00] Introduction
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Dagobert: Okay, man. So good to see you. I think it's the first time we're meeting. Uh, you know, like, yeah, we've been like, you know, I think connecting on Twitter for a couple of years. So can you give us like a quick intro to what you're doing and who you are?

Mattia: Yeah. So, um, Okay. My name is Mattia. Uh, you, you know that already?

Um, I've been a marketer freelance for six years and then two years ago I decided to, uh, leave and basically try to become an indie, indie maker and indie actor as well. Uh, so I started building my audience on Twitter. Uh, I created a few info products, uh, for example, because I had a, an issue writing tweets, I didn't know what to write and so on.

And one

Dagobert: of, so you built like an, so you built an info product to help people learn to write tweets.

Mattia: Not to learn to write tweets, but because I learned, um, by doing basically, so, uh, tweet after tweet after tweet, but. I didn't know what to write, so I need, uh, ideas, examples, and I created a product that was useful for me, but also, uh, in the long run, uh, I guess it got more than 2000 customers.

Dagobert: Oh, wow. Awesome. Okay.

Mattia: Yeah. Uh, so, you know, uh, it, it, it was a pain I had, but it's, it was also shared between among many people. And so, yeah, it worked.

[00:01:42] Quitting his job
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Mattia: And yeah, one day I decided to quit the pronouncing career and I said, okay, let's, let's try to build products. I didn't know if I wanted to create SAS, uh, like every other makers or info products.

But I wanted to try and three months later I burned out basically so yeah So when was this?

Dagobert: So what when was this?

Mattia: It was the end of 2022. So yeah I took a few weeks to rest for the Christmas holidays Yeah. And I never came back, or well, I came back 11 months later.

Dagobert: So that's very interesting that you're talking about this because that's why I invited you in the first place is, I came, I basically had a burnout at about, I think the same time as you.

Yeah, I know. Like early 2023. And I left Twitter also, and I came back to Twitter and after a couple of weeks, like, like two months ago or something, and after a couple of weeks, I saw you tweet, Hey, I'm burnt out, but I'm back to Twitter. And I felt like exactly the same story. So that's why I invited you.

Cause I was like, wow, this is so. Okay. So you burnt out only three months after like starting, like going full indie. So why, what, what do you think happened?

Mattia: Yeah, it happened three months later, but actually. I didn't start three months earlier. I started one year and a half earlier. Yeah. We've like side

Dagobert: projects before quitting your job, right?

Exactly.

Mattia: So yeah, I, for almost, yeah, one year and a half, I, I wanted to create my Twitter audience. I've been there every day, all day. And then I also had my freelance work. And it's been, you know, it's been tough to, um, to handle all of this amount of work, but the problem actually, because I thought that if I, if I quit my freelancing stuff, then I will be, I will be able to.

Uh, create more things, have more time. But the problem, it was the opposite. It's because I didn't add any scope. Oh, okay. And basically I spend all the time on Twitter. Or most of my time on Twitter. And deep inside me, I knew that I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to spend six, eight hours on Twitter.

I liked it. It was like an addiction to me.

Dagobert: Yeah. I had the exact same thing. I see exactly what you mean. Yeah. Cause like, it feels like you're making progress. You get like dopamine hits, you get like notifications all the time, or like you you're trying to, and it feels like you're making progress. It feels like you're going to win something, but in the end, don't win much usually.

You just like get followers, but like, it's not much.

Mattia: I know that I wasn't making progress. I knew that and that's why, and that's what I call my emotional misalignment. You know, I wanted to do something, but I spend my days doing something else. And it was like, Oh, just another one. Just another one. After this one, I will start working on that landing page of the service I'm creating.

But, um, you know, uh, one day when, when, when I wanted to write, because, um, in my previous six years, I've never took any, uh, Uh, Christmas holidays, uh, nothing and I said, okay, you can do it now. You have almost two years of runway, so you, you, you, you can relax for a bit. And, and that's when, you know, my, my body, my brain, everything broke up.

And once

Dagobert: you started relaxing, then it like, yeah, that's the same that happened to me. Wow. Yeah. So that was basically the exhaustion of social media. And I think, I don't know how it is for you, but for me, like this, it's so tricky because it gives you so much dopamine. It kind of like messes up. How you, you know, feel productive.

Like I was, I remember I spent basically one year and a half being on Twitter on average. I mean, at the beginning I was like, like you, like eight, 10 hours a day. Then eventually I kind of like average four hours a day. But that is way, even if you just, Just four hours a day. That's so much, that's so much time spent kind of like, cause like this is very addictive and, and not just in a healthy way.

I mean, addiction isn't healthy, but I mean, it's not just because of positive stuff. It's also because sometimes you're going to feel like. Oh, I want like, you may, maybe you're going to get into fights with people, like arguing about some stuff. Like, and it just becomes crazy. And like, but you get some visibility and you get some followers and you think, oh, this is building something, but it's mostly just air.

Like it's not, it's nothing actually, what you're building. And so that's what you said, like, there's like emotional misalignment. I feel like there's like misalignment between how much work and intensity we put in to grow. And like, what realistically we get out of it, like, it's not like, it's like eating popcorn, like you can eat popcorn the whole day and it keeps you full, but you don't get any nutriments, like you don't get protein, you don't get anything.

It's just like air, you're eating nothing, you know, but it's addictive.

Mattia: Yeah. My feeling that is, um,

I love spending time talking with people, you know, chatting, sending messages. I really like that, but the ROI. The return of the investment was zero because I had no product or basically no product. So all the traffic that I got my profile, uh, the new followers, the visibility turned into nothing. So as you said, as you brought up the popcorn example.

It was thin air, you know?

Dagobert: Yeah. It was nothing. You were just like, it was the potential for something. It could become something, but since you couldn't, you couldn't turn it into well, money to feel like it was useful.

Mattia: Because I didn't want to teach anything, basically. I wanted to create things, but if I spent all the time engaging with people, how could I create something that I wanted to create?

There, there was no time. So I started, um, cutting out, uh, Uh, going out with friends, going to the gym because I, I couldn't, there was no time. But actually the problem, it was, um, my priority, my priorities were a mess. There, there weren't really priority, you know?

Dagobert: Yeah. Yeah. That's very interesting. I didn't, I'm surprised.

That's what happened to you. Cause that's so similar to what happened to me. And so I'm curious now what, so you said initially that you spend time on Twitter instead of doing what you really wanted to do. So what is it that you really wanted to do at this time?

Mattia: Oh, uh, right now, instead of starting back on Twitter, actually, I didn't want to came back right now, uh, but a friend of mine, not, not ship I'm sure you know it.

It's Luca Restagno. Yeah. Prompt me to, hey, restart your journey. There is a typefully challenge. You should, you should hop on again. No, but I meant like, I meant like,

Dagobert: I meant like when you burn out, uh, you know, when you did your burnout. Oh, sorry, sorry,

Mattia: sorry. I, I, I thought you Yeah, no, we will

Dagobert: talk about it, but like, I was like, okay, when you did your burnout, what did you, what did you want it to build that you ended up not really building because you were doing Twitter?

Mattia: Oh, um,

[00:10:13] Building his first product
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Mattia: my initial idea was to build sass was to be less startup coding something I didn't know how to do it, but I wanted to learn and try and after a month I said, okay, probably, you I'm not, uh, uh, I'm not earning money, so I need to, uh, start earning money. And because you know, my runway is 20, 24 months at max.

So I,

Dagobert: that's quite good. That's quite good though. But I think that's the right amount. That's like stressful, but doable.

Mattia: Yeah, but it wasn't, to me, it felt like short. And I was, okay, so if I build a SaaS, it might take, let's say, one year to start earning something. Let's try to build a product over my knowledge.

And I want, initially, I wanted to create an ebook. And I saw how much time it took me to write even a chapter. And I said, okay, no, it's not the right thing. Can I create a video product? I'm not confident enough. And so I created a service because I actually created a service that was like a one on one mentorship program and people could join and I would have, I would have let them, um, learn how to launch.

their products on Twitter, because you know, there are many, there are different stages. You cannot go outside and say, Hey, I launched something. Yeah. No one is listening to you.

Dagobert: They don't

Mattia: care. So you need to, you know, uh, tease them, involve them. And so there are many steps and they wanted to work one on one with people, but eventually.

It never happened because you know, uh, I said, okay, uh, I worked a lot to create this service, this page, I've got like 10 forms submission. Uh, it was the first batch, so, you know, I could even, um, pick and choose who to work with. Okay. It was really great, but the problem is that, um, I wanted to start in January and gave myself those two weeks to rest.

And yeah, the product, the service never started. So I, I didn't.

[00:12:52] Burn out
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Dagobert: So you burn out even before you could start the service you had planned, you had tried doing video and then text and then eventually you, okay. So it took you this time to, yeah, it makes sense.

Mattia: And when I came back a few months ago, I said, okay, no, that's not my path.

I don't want to force myself into those things again. Not right now, because I feel like, you know, during all this time, I worked on myself on my consciousness, and I realized that back then there, it wasn't only an emotional misalignment, but inside me, there was a mess.

Dagobert: That's interesting because, okay, so, so you burnt out.

And so you spent basically one year thinking about it. Did you, did you take a job during this time? No. Well, you still had your runway. You use the runway that you had.

Mattia: Yeah. And that's a problem because now I'm forced, I'm forced to come up with something.

Dagobert: Yeah, I bet. So you spend this time like working on yourself, you said.

So what did you do?

Mattia: Um, initially the first few months I wanted to, I tried almost every day. To get back on my feet, to, you know, come here in my home studio, turn on the computer. I couldn't. I couldn't. Okay. So what happened? So

Dagobert: before, before, maybe it's more interesting, like, what happened when you burnt out, basically?

What happened physically? What, what happened to you? Oh,

Mattia: uh, I couldn't move outside the couch, basically. I, I, I went on the couch. Sit there all day, watch some TV shows, uh, play it with the PlayStation, with video games. Because for a long time, during not only those three months of, uh, when I went indie, but also before.

Dagobert: Yeah.

Mattia: I, I stopped. enjoying my, my time, basically, I didn't watch anything because I scrolled Twitter and articles on my phone. I didn't play video games anymore. And when the burnout hit, this is this was the only thing I couldn't I could do, you know?

Dagobert: Yeah, okay. Yeah, you had no energy, no motivation, you couldn't, your body was like fighting it.

And so you ended up, okay, so only watching TV and I kind of like relaxing. So you did that for a few months.

Mattia: Uh, you

Dagobert: didn't really have a choice, basically. So you did that and then, yeah,

Mattia: yeah. I tried it, but everything, nothing worked, you know? No, I know. I

Dagobert: know. So like, how did it manifest itself? Because for example, me, I remember.

When I was like standing up, my heart would just beat so fast that eventually I would like faint. So I had to like lay down and I couldn't, you know, my, that was just my body. So like, did you have any manifestations like physical that prevented you or was it more like tiredness?

Mattia: Yeah, tiredness not Except for, you know, I lose, I lost a lot of weight.

Dagobert: Okay.

Mattia: Like, yeah, I'm, I'm not so skinny anymore. I used to be. Uh, but let's say that in those 2 3 months, When, when the burnout hit, I lost like six, seven kilograms.

Dagobert: Yeah, that's, that's a lot.

Mattia: And yeah, when I saw myself in the mirror, I was like, oh, who's that? Who's that guy? I couldn't recognize myself. So I had no issue with standing up.

It wasn't a problem for me. But, you know, uh, physique, So I, I, I had not physical problems, but yeah, I, I, I didn't feel well. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I was worried. I was also worried to, um, show myself outside with a t shirt because after losing weight, I wasn't confident anymore.

Dagobert: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You didn't. Uh, yeah.

Okay. You wasn't used to your new body. You were feeling okay.

Mattia: So I know it was more psychological and emotional. Yeah, but it's the

Dagobert: same thing. It's just one, one way. It's the same thing. Yeah. Okay.

[00:17:52] Recovery
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Dagobert: And so eventually, what did you do to try to, you know, what you started working on yourself, you said?

Mattia: Oh, uh, with my therapist.

Dagobert: Okay.

Mattia: I already had a therapist.

Dagobert: Did you have a therapist before or was it because of that?

Mattia: Yeah, we worked, uh, in the past we worked on other things. And, uh, yeah, when burnout started, I was like, okay, maybe I need to ask for help.

Dagobert: Yeah.

Mattia: And let me say, this was the, the best thing I did back then, because I couldn't help myself.

Okay, okay. So, without her, um, I don't know how could I even get back on my feet, you know?

Dagobert: Yeah.

Okay, so you did a few, so you did therapy. Okay, and what happened? Did you slowly get back into shape, like over months? Did you started eating more? Like, did you, how did you approach it? You know,

Mattia: um, the first thing was to accept what happened because I didn't want to.

I'm not sure if it happens to you too, but I didn't want to accept

Dagobert: that I was in denial. I was like, I was in total denial. I was like, it cannot be that because I don't have a boss. So like, if I don't have a boss, how can I be burning out? I'm free. I have my own life. And I was convinced it was impossible.

I was, I thought it was long COVID for five weeks. You know, so yeah, I was really in denial so I understand what you mean.

Mattia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Me too And so yeah, the first thing was to basically accept and say, okay, I have a problem it happened I cannot go back and change things because it already happened.

Dagobert: Yeah,

Mattia: and What I did was like, okay Wasting my time trying to fight it.

Dagobert: Yeah,

Mattia: right to go along with it.

Dagobert: Yeah. Yeah,

Mattia: I see and the first thing Yeah, the first thing I started doing was, um, working back, working outside. I, I got back working outside. I, in, I don't remember exactly the time, but basically I decided to take a six day hike.

Yeah. Uh, two city here in Italy from Bologna to Florence. Okay. Uh, it's, it's 130 kilometers. Okay. So it takes six, six days, but I wasn't in shape. And so I said, okay, I have this goal. Now let's try to work for it. And yeah, train. So basically I started working one day, uh, three kilometers, the other one hour and so on.

And yeah, I also restarted my workout routine, of course with less weights, uh, you know, but I restarted that and in a few months, let me say around mid of, mid of the year, mid of 2023. I felt in shape, much, much better, but I was scared to get back and work again.

Dagobert: Yeah. So you had found kind of like a new balance.

You had rebuilt yourself, but you were still traumatized by what happened.

Mattia: Yeah, exactly. So I had this thought and I said, Hmm, I would like to do it, but I didn't feel ready. Of course, you never feel ready for basically anything. But, yeah, I was so scared that I said, Hmm, maybe I need to Um, to, to work, to work more on myself to, because I wanted to feel confident enough that I didn't want to go back there, you know, I fought with demons.

It was a. The first two months were a dark place for me.

Dagobert: Yeah.

Mattia: So, I didn't want to get back there again. And, yeah, the second half, it was only to work on my mind and understand that I was strong enough. And

Dagobert: so, did you plan your kind of like return and not just to Twitter, but just like to indie hacking?

Did you make changes to the way you do things from, you know, when you, the time when you were now?

Mattia: You know, when you, when you, when you've got more experience, you think this differently.

Dagobert: Yeah.

Mattia: And yeah, before, before even thinking about Twitter, I started, um, jotting down ideas So what I wanted to work on and I started learning how to code the basic things I know my my first right now, okay, it's easy to say but um The first month I came back.

It was like the end of november when when I started with my newsletter And I said hey guys, I burned out Here is what happened I wanted to share my story Those days I was like Okay, now we have two hours to work on, let's say, to learn how to code in React, let's say.

Dagobert: Yeah.

Mattia: And, For the rest of the day, I didn't do anything else.

Dagobert: Yeah. Yeah. So like small achievable goals. Yes. And

Mattia: nothing else.

Dagobert: It's interesting you say that because I noticed for me, one of the reasons of the burnout and what's stressing me is when I have too many things at once. Yeah, so, you know, I really appreciate when you say that because I'm like, yeah doing just one thing per day Like one type of thing per day.

Mattia: Yeah Yeah, I need to get used to again because I'm the kind of guy that if you say me There's something if you tell me to do something I have no problem doing it, um, but, you know, I don't stop. I'm not sure how to say it, how to, how to explain the right method. But basically, when I, when I, when I played football.

Dagobert: Yeah.

Mattia: If my trainer told me to, uh, I don't know. Run for like 30 minutes. I did it even if I was tired.

Dagobert: Okay, so you're very disciplined

Mattia: Push me push my resistance, but the problem is when I did it back then it got It only led me to burn out. So that's why I Focused only on a few hours a day initially because I knew that doing too much would have Um, my body and my mind also more than anything else.

And so that's why I said, uh, that I need, um, I needed to get used to again, to work again.

[00:26:22] Discovering your limit
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Dagobert: Yeah, it's interesting because I talked to a bunch of people who've had burnout as well. And what I noticed that we, what we all have in common is that once you burnt out, you've discovered that you had a limit. And you didn't know before that you had the limit.

You thought you could push with your mindset and your mental, your, your brain, your mind for like forever. And then the burnout teaches you that there's that you, you can hit a wall eventually and you crash, whether it's mentally, physically, both, and. But then once you know that you never forget it, you're like, and so, and it's interesting to me that you didn't really have many physical symptoms.

I mean, not as much as, yeah, as me or as some other people, but like, you know, but like, I feel like. Um, because for me, what's helpful is that, well, basically if I start working too much or get too stressed, like I start, my eyes get blurry. Like, so like, it's so, so it's like, like, it's very, it's a very easy signal or like, I feel like physical tiredness and I can't move almost like my heart goes crazy.

So I kind of like, so it's kind of like, it's very scary, but it's also, it's an amazing kind of like feedback. You know, my body gives me very obvious feedback, like, no, you're stressing too much. Even though I thought, oh, maybe this time it's cool. No, you're still trusting too much. Get, get less stuff on your plate or like remove stuff that you don't really want to do that you didn't.

So you were kind of like unconsciously forcing yourself to do, you know, stuff like this.

Mattia: So you basically learned how to listen to yourself, to your body.

Dagobert: Yeah. I don't have a choice. Like my body was like, you haven't listened to me for so long. Like I'm going to like, my body is just like shouting at me now and I cannot like, like, and like, and it's overpowering, powering me.

So I cannot do anything. But that's, I think. That's like an interesting challenge, I think. But what's interesting is that you don't seem to have that many physical sim, like feedback like that, but you still like have been traumatized enough to be like, okay, no, I am not gonna like, you still learn that lesson, like you're like, it's obvious you are not going to push yourself.

to this limit again?

Mattia: Yeah. Well, for example, one thing I do differently is that I promised to myself that I would never work in the evening anymore. Okay. And you know, it's weird because I always see myself as a night owl, but actually I'm not. Oh, that's interesting.

Dagobert: I think the same as you. I still think I'm a night owl.

Uh, but okay. So that's, I'm very curious about what you're going to say. So you basically discovered that you're not? Not

Mattia: that much. Okay. I'm still a night owl. But, uh, if I work in the morning and the afternoon, I, by the, by the evening, I'm done.

Dagobert: Okay.

Mattia: So why do you think you used

Dagobert: to, so why did you think you used to be a night owl then?

Mattia: Because I always work better at night. Sometimes I even work like that until 3 a. m.

Dagobert: Yeah.

Mattia: Because I liked it. But somehow, um, somehow I feel better now when I, when I go to bed, when I, when I shut down the computer. Early, let's say late afternoon, early, early evening. Don't think about work in the evening, relax, do other things.

Let's say going out, everything, you name it. I rest for the, for the fall, for the whole night.

Dagobert: And so I think if you do this, it can maybe like recalibrate your body because

Mattia: Yeah,

Dagobert: like you, if you, if you set like a limit, like I will never work after like 7:00 PM let's say I will never work after 7:00 PM then.

Well, you will be wanting to go to bed. You will be wanting to like wake up in the morning to work. Uh, because if you don't set that limit, for example, I have trouble with that. I like, I don't set that limit. Then I will always be like, yeah, I can wake up late and I'll work late. The next day, you know.

Mattia: I always did it, like you said, and you know, not, not sure if, because I'm scary to, to get back there, but I feel better now.

And the cool thing is sometimes it's tough. You know, when you are your own boss, when you want to, when you want to work on something so badly. Yeah. Because you have a new idea. You want

Dagobert: Yeah.

Mattia: You figure it out how to, uh, let's say it, it was you spend the whole day working on, on a bag or something that you

Dagobert: Yeah.

Mattia: That you didn't, that you wasn't able to fix. When you figure it out, during your rest time, you want to go back and work on it so badly. But, I need to wait. I know that I need to wait and work on it the day after. Or, um, yeah, the

Dagobert: next, the next available time. Yeah.

Mattia: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's because, um, if I do it one time, maybe I will do it twice, maybe thrice.

Dagobert: Yeah.

Mattia: And so, you know, Uh, it's easy to get back on the older routines.

Dagobert: You know, it kind of like reminds me of the addiction to social media because like I was managing to Not open twitter all day and like open once a day like that I do now But yesterday for example, I tweeted something and I got a lot of reactions And now I started again going on Twitter, like every 10 minutes to see what people said and react and get my kind of like emotional kick.

And like, it's something I posted that I didn't expect, but like was a bit controversial. So I have like negative reactions and positive reactions. And that's like, weirdly, that's even more addictive because then you're checking to see is somebody shitting on me or is somebody uploading me? It's like even worse.

And I feel like It takes a lot of mindfulness to be like, no, I am not going to check this. And I feel like this is the same, like. No, I am not going to work at this time. And you kind of like have to control, you know, these impulses to, to basically mess up your schedule and your life. You know, cause like, that's just, that's all we are doing.

We're like messing up, you know, the, the fundamental, like, cause like, you know, when your kids, you go to school and it's like a set time or like when you go to a job, you have a set time. But like, we're just like destroying all these rules, which is kind of like freeing, but it's also exhausting eventually, because then you have no, you don't know what, when it begins, you don't know what it ends.

And it's just like, and you actually lose freedom, even though you think you have freedom, but you're just basically losing, like you basically are never without it anymore. You'll never like free. So like, that's, that's weird. You know, it's kind of like a counter intuitive thing that by removing all the rules and boundaries and And you know, schedule, you end up actually more trapped.

Into it somehow, you know what I mean?

Mattia: Yeah, also because when you I never I never really Understood it, but when you remove the time boundaries your activity and what you do Expand to fill all the time available. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I see. Oh, yeah, and I never I never got a grasp of it before. Now I do. And I don't say I'm, um, I've got better in time management.

No, not that. But sometimes I, I know that, no, I always know that I need to give myself some boundaries. So when it's time to stop doing things like, for example, Now I use social media, uh, for two pomodoros, let's say, two half an hour per day, and that's all. Because for me, if I don't do it, it will take me all the time available and it's not healthy.

[00:35:40] Addictive tendencies
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Mattia: It's like, we're talking about addiction, we have addiction for social media, for working on our stuff. Other people have addiction on drugs, alcohols, and other things, you know, slot machines, roulettes. I do not. I have addiction for other things. I build addiction for other things. That's what I learned during my, uh, my therapy.

Dagobert: You said you build addiction for other things?

Mattia: No, no, sorry. Um, maybe I explained myself. Badly. No. Uh, I said that I do not build addiction for things like drugs, alcohol. Yeah. And, and, and, and other stuff that I see many people out there, my friends even Yeah. Yeah. Have problem with them. I, I do not, but then I build addiction quickly.

For social media or working on my stuff, my app, my products, you know, I think it's the same, even if it's different, it's definitely

Dagobert: the same. Yeah, it's not, I mean, some people argue that an addiction is only when you have a physical component, like you have, for example, nicotine or you have drugs, but I think it's really a mental process.

Also, yeah. I think it's worse if you have a, uh, uh, I mean, I assume, but if you have like a, a physical component, it's probably even harder, but I still think like it's an addiction. Like, I'm a bit ashamed of saying this, but I used to be addicted to porn when I was in my twenties. I would watch three hours of porn a day and it was like fucking me up so bad.

At first it was like fun, you know, cause you're just like a teenager and like, it's exciting and you're masturbating like, Oh, it's so cool. But then I remember seeing this video from, uh, like some TED talk or something. Some guy who has studied porn addiction and he, you know, described the stages. And it was like first stage is like you watch porn a couple times a week and like you masturbate it's like kind of like normal, I mean almost normal.

Then second stage like you watch it every day, uh, and you masturbate every day. And third stage is you watch it and you don't even masturbate. And, but you always watch it and I thought I was like, and that was my stage, but I thought that was kind of like healthy because I think, Oh, I'm not even masturbating.

So what am I doing? You know, it's not wrong. But when I see him explain that it's like the last stage that you're like, you're not even like. And it became such an addiction that you don't even use it for pleasure or for anything. It's just like, you have to have porn because like it triggers some like excitement and dopamine.

And I remember for like a few months, I literally couldn't work without porn somewhere playing that gave me kind of like, you know, the motive that, you know, the kind of like sexual excitement that would, that I would use as energy to work. But that was. Incredibly painful. That was like something that mentally was like exhausting.

And so eventually, and I watched that movie at the time that was called shame with, uh, Michael Fassbender, which is about a guy who is a sex addict. It was like 10 years ago, I think. And that really helped me. And then eventually I quit porn. Uh, I almost, I almost don't masturbate or watch porn anymore.

Like maybe a couple of times a year, but like very, very little. I completely stopped. But I, yeah, that's what I was wanting to say with that is that I feel like it's almost impossible to not have an addiction. I feel, uh, I mean, it might be a bit of a personality thing cause like my parents both had addictions.

My parents, my dad is an alcoholic and he was also heavy cigarette smoker. Uh, my mom had more complex, uh, you know, psychiatric kind of like issues, but she had like addictive, she was addicting to gambling and other stuff. So I felt like you definitely have like your life that is, you know, your, your environment that plays a role, but I feel like I have an addictive type of personality because then, for example, when I did weightlifting a few years ago, I was doing two hours a day and I was getting crazy about it.

I was like, and I had to do two hours a day, you know? And then when I started doing Twitter, I did 10 hours a day

and I

feel like it's hard for me to not go into that. And with this burnout, it's kind of like teaching me that I cannot do that anymore. I cannot be like 200 percent or something because it's kind of like, because I feel like this addiction, whatever it is, is kind of like a fantasy.

Like you think like if you go all in or even beyond that on something, it's going to like, kind of like save you from like some deeper pain that you're not looking at. So, you know, something like that. I don't know. I don't know what's your relationship to like addiction. If you had like other addictions in your life.

Mattia: Now that you, yeah, now that you said that, I figured out that also my parents have addiction or add addiction because my mother smoked a lot of cigarettes and my father played with um, uh, I don't know how lotteries. Yeah.

Dagobert: Yeah. So gambling, let's say gambling. Yeah.

Mattia: Yeah. Gambling. Exactly. And I didn't, I didn't have that problem with porn, but I feel you because I understand how it feels to, um, wanting to go there and watch again and again and again.

I did it with video games in the past. Yeah. Uh, I used to play, uh, strategic video games. And, you know, sometimes I found myself at 6 a. m., 6, 7 a. m. in the morning, I spent all the night playing and my father, my father wake up and I was like, Oh shit, now I need to, uh, go to bed and shut down the computer or it will beat me, you know?

Yeah, okay. It would be me because, you know, you are, you are just a kid. What are you doing? It's not healthy. It's not good. Okay. It's not healthy. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, but I didn't, of course I was, I was too unaware of it. So I didn't recognize what happened. And just like you, one day, uh, I quit playing and when I grew up, I started doing it more healthy.

Well, not, not, not when I burned out actually, but yeah, sometimes I go play for a few hours and I'm done. I, I actually right now it's like six months I'm not, I do not play, but it's okay because I don't feel the urge.

Dagobert: Yeah, yeah,

yeah, eventually you kind of like once you understand that's a problem and you stop eventually you actually lose the urge now the thing that I noticed though, and I don't know how it's for you, but like It was doable to quit watching porn, you know, so I did it. But what they don't tell you when you quit an addiction is that then you're left with the pain.

Then you're left with like the pain that you were masking using the addiction. You know, cause like I was basically, uh, watching porn all the time because I didn't enjoy The work I was doing, that was one of my way of coping. I was freelancing as a developer. That was 10 years ago. I was taking projects to make money, but it didn't fulfill me.

And so that, but I understood that later, but I had a long time where like I had stopped watching porn. So I didn't have the addiction anymore and then I was just there with like this work that I didn't like now I think it's very good because then if you don't escape the pain using the addiction whether it's like Social media addiction porn addiction like video games addiction or even alcohol once you're like so it's very painful because once you remove the addiction then you're like Shit, you know, like, I mean, the reason why you were having this addiction is to not feel the pain.

So you will now feel the pain, but then, you know, once you, and then it's like, and so the challenge is then accepting that you will have a time where you feel pain and the suffering that you were hiding from. At least that's how it was for me every time I stopped an addiction and then, and then you have to face, okay, I need to make changes in my life, basically,

[00:44:59] Escaping the pain of my failing startup (dago)
---

Mattia: you know, so where you're, where you're addiction for Twitter, a way to escape.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, but from, you were trying to escape from the failure of Logology.

Dagobert: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, you know, we had been doing Logology for three years with my ex wife at this point. And, We were so much, we were struggling so bad. And finally, because usually I think that's the case with many addictions at the beginning, it's good at the beginning, it's cool, you know?

So, and then, you know, I started doing Twitter and finally we had some sales finally by being active on Twitter. And I found that I had like, I was good at it. I was getting sales. And so we went like, and like, and like in about how much, let's say, I don't remember exactly, but quickly, let's say in less than six months, we went from like 300 per month to 3000.

So that's like, there was a game changer for us in terms of revenue, you know, especially after spending three years, not making almost anything. So at first it was good. I was just doing Twitter, you know, but then, and I was making sales, but then eventually, you know, I did it. Let me think about it. I think I did it because I didn't want to come back.

I mean, eventually I realized, okay, we're not going to, it's not going to be enough. Twitter isn't going to be enough. Like we went to 3k, we're not going to do more than that. But, and it's like very exhausting. It's taking me so long, so many hours a day, as you know. Um, but then what was happening is I, I didn't want to go back to failing again.

I didn't want to go back to not making money again. This was so painful these three years. I didn't want to go back to, uh, You know, cause I knew, we knew we had to do SEO, for example, that was the plan. We had like, my ex wife actually wrote some articles that were awesome that we never posted, uh, you know, because I was so busy with Twitter, I couldn't set up a blog and like, you know, these kinds of things, you know, that were actually very painful for her as well, you know, because I, I was so addicted to Twitter that I couldn't even do the other things for the business.

And so, but like deep down, what was happening is that, I didn't want to start from zero again because I knew if I like stop, because I would have to stop being on Twitter to do the other things. I mean, I could just maintain it like one hour a day, but not much more because it's, because even one hour is like so demanding that, you know, you know what it is, so I would have to limit it.

And I knew if I limited it, at least I believed so I would, we would go from 3000 a month to maybe 1000 a month, you know, we would like go down or like 1500. You know, like half of it. And I was so scared of that, of like going back to like, we're not making money. Cause like, again, the 3000 a month wasn't enough to pay ourselves.

Like we needed to make, we needed to make 5k to just barely survive, you know, and 10k to have like a decent life, you know, we have like all the taxes and stuff and the cost of running a company. And yeah. Yeah. So it was so scary to like jump again. I felt like I had finally, after three years of pain, we had finally find a good thing and I didn't want to let it go.

Even though I could see and feel that this good thing was not going to work out. I was like, this is the thing I found. So let me see, let me cling to it, you know? And so I completely disregarded the other things we could do. Uh, which was actually a big reason why, you know, Uh, we failed in the end cause like eventually it crashed, you know, and it kept like, you know,

Mattia: Did you feel tired back then?

So, so tired, but you couldn't stop.

Dagobert: I don't think I even felt it. I think you, I think I was, cause I think the burnout was basically one year in the making. So yeah, I had, I think it's, I think eventually after six months of Twitter and I saw it wasn't going to go much bigger. Um, I think, you know, one of the red, red flags was, was when I started doing my Twitter course, Which is, I think, a really cool product.

You know, people love it. It's been very valuable. So I'm really proud of it. I'm happy I did it. And it made us a lot of money, but, but it was like the next level of me avoiding Logology. You know, that was me just like, okay, I can stay in my Twitter addiction and turn it into a product. So that was like, you know, like.

Make that was kind of like making the problem even worse. Like if you take a long term view, you know, I was like setting myself up for an even bigger failure because I was like avoiding even more like looking at, okay. Logology is probably not a good business or we need to pivot and the saddest thing.

And I feel so. Guilty about it is that we had a vision for pivoting, like for like at least a year prior, we had like, we had actually tested the new product. We had early adopters that loved it. We could have made way more money with this. It could have been a pivot that would have worked and made the startup actually successful.

I really believe so. Basically the idea was to stop selling logos and sell like complete brand guides, which are like more expensive and people actually prefer to logos. So it would have been probably way easier to sell, but I was so addicted to Twitter. I never had any energy or time to do it. And that was like very painful for, understandably for my ex wife, you know, because she was working on that.

And I wasn't like, I mean, and I said I would do it, but I couldn't, because I was addicted to the quick short term results of Twitter. And I couldn't let that go. You know, I couldn't take like six months of break. I was too scared. I was too scared of like. Spending six months not making much money to build the next product.

And so eventually it, you know, collapsed.

Mattia: Yeah. But also because it feels like work.

Dagobert: Oh shit. You're right. Yeah. It does. It's less fun. It's less fun. It's less fun. Yeah. Building a fucking, yeah. Building a product is not as fun as like getting dopamine every five minutes. By which is the addiction you get, especially I was good at Twitter, so I was getting viral all very often and you get this dopamine and you feel on top of the world and it's fake.

I mean, it's mostly fake. There's also some value, but it's mostly fake. And yeah, you're right. And it didn't feel like work, but now that I look back, it is such an addiction. It wasn't healthy. It wasn't like, you know, cause as you said, like, it's cool to talk with other people. You know, you said yourself, like you like to talk with other people.

But then it's not that it's not talking like it's that but it's also like it's just getting attention and getting dopamine, you know

Mattia: Yeah, but also for me, it's about you know, I'm an inbox to zero person right now I have four emails I can see them. I Guess they are all spam. I don't care but I need to process every email being an inbox zero person is not about replying to everyone.

It's about processing everything. So if you look at my phone, I don't have notification. And if you look at my Twitter, I always open the notification. I go down until I see my last reply or last like. And I start processing them from there. And when you have more and more and even more comments and engagement, you know, I know.

You already know how the story goes, you know? Yeah.

Dagobert: Like, cause like, you want to process it, and I'm the same. You want to reply to everyone. I feel so bad when I don't reply to someone because I feel like they took the time to write to me. And

Mattia: It's just

Dagobert: not happening. And yeah, and actually it's funny because like, it's like the, the tweet I made about my burnout, which was the tweet that got the most attention ever.

It got more than a thousand replies. That's a lot of replies. And, and I really replies, you know, like, and so, and we're like, I was so clear I was burnt out because I would, I just wrote about it. I didn't give a shit. I didn't reply to anybody. And like, and like, it was just like spontaneous. Like, yeah, fuck that.

You know, I, I hope people, I mean, I think it's because also I ended my message of like, I love you all because I was like very in pain when I wrote this. So it kind of like made it okay. I'm like, okay. I hope people know that I love them, but it's always what's scaring me when you don't reply to people is they feel like.

You don't care about them or something, but

Mattia: yeah, exactly the same. And I see it's another, let's say mini addiction to escape from another pain that it's like, Oh, maybe the next time they won't write me again. Yeah,

Dagobert: exactly. You will disappoint them basically.

Mattia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh no. Uh, I, I forgot. I wanted to, I wanted to add something, but I forgot.

Yep.

No, yeah, I don't remember. Oh, okay. Okay. No, I, I'm hearing it.

[00:54:34] Being afraid to launch and have 0 signups again
---

Mattia: Uh, when, when you said about, um, that you were on Twitter to escape from, basically you didn't want to get back at zero or, yeah, we didn't want to earn less money than you were doing. For me, it was a similar thing, but it started differently. I didn't earn money from my Twitter activity.

Before burning out, but I started Twitter and I started creating an audience and so on. Because when I created my first indie product, actually, it wasn't a product. It was a service. Uh, I loans and no one saw it because you know, I didn't add, I didn't have any audience. When I, when I learn, no one cared, I tried to find customers and going forums and try things.

But after a while I had to shut it down. And I said, a few months later, I said, okay, next time I will launch something. I will do it with an audience. I will never launch something without an audience again. And when I started on Twitter, you know, as you said, it was so good. Initially, everything new, I started making friends.

First, I have a few friends. We still text each other, even if they are not on Twitter anymore. And it's so good because, you know, uh, My in real life friends don't know about those stuff. Yeah. So you, you, you match, you bond with like minded people. And when I couldn't stop myself spending all day on Twitter, it was because In my mind, in the back of my mind, actually, it was not there, it was back, um,

Dagobert: I knew that if

Mattia: I stopped my Twitter activity, I could have lost, I could have lost my Twitter audience.

Dagobert: Yeah.

Mattia: And I didn't want to get back there. So, you know, Yeah. You were trying to, you were escaping.

Dagobert: You didn't want to face that launching in the void again. Cause that was very painful.

Mattia: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay. So, um, that's why I prioritized my Twitter activity before creating any product or service. But the problem is it expanded for the whole day and I had no, uh, no time left to work on anything.

And it was,

Dagobert: yeah, it's very hard to control yourself once you get some momentum and you see that, you know, the more time you spend, the more you grow. And so it becomes an addiction.

Mattia: Yeah, but also, let me say, it's not healthy to spend all that time engaging with people. Not only because I, not only because, yeah, not only because I, I burned out, but because, what's the point?

You know, it, it, it, It's a treadmill. Every day you need to get back there and build relationships and traffic and so on. And the day after you already lost it.

Dagobert: Oh, yeah. I see what you mean. Yeah. It's very, yeah. You know what? You sound very wise. I really enjoyed this conversation. You sound like this guy who went off for one year, meditated, and now comes back and speaks very slowly. And it's just like. That's awesome. I enjoy it. That's cool. Hard earned lesson. So yeah.

Mattia: I wish, I wish to be wise, but I don't feel like I, I'm, you know, there are other people who are wiser than me and you probably are one of them, so.

Dagobert: Oh, I don't know about that. I don't feel wise either. So I guess, I guess that's a sign of wisdom to not feel wise though. Cause you know, no, it is because when you think like, you know, everything you're clearly not wise.

[00:59:16] Indie hotline: abused by cofounder
---

Dagobert: Okay. So, you know, man, like I opened the Indy hotline, which you guys can found if you go to indylifepod. com and you go to the Indy hotline link. And what it is basically is like, if you're indie or like solopreneur or whatever, or even startup founder, you don't have to be in the, you can talk about, you can basically send me like a message, like text, audio or video.

I would prefer audio or video so I can like put it on the show, but like for now I only get text. It's fine as well, I guess, but like, and it's like testimonials of like what you're going through. I had the, I had one in the recording with Dominic and I had an other one this morning that I want to talk about.

Okay. So here's this week's submission and it's from, well, he wants to be anonymous. So I'm not even going to say his first name, but here's how it goes. He said, hi, Dago. I'm following your journey for past few years and I love your authenticity. Keep doing what you're doing. Thanks, man. So here's my story.

I wanted to share. I came across an idea, chat with PDF in early January, 2023 from a person I met online. He later became my co founder. There was no one in this market at that time. I got lucky to be in the right place at the right time with the right idea. And I built a chat with PDF tool. It got instantly viral and we got 10 K registered users in one week.

Yeah, that's viral. Okay. Awesome. I told my co founder to quit his job and fly to my country and let's build it together full time. He wanted to quit his job for many years, so he did it. He even thanked me for giving him the opportunity. We rented an apartment and started working together. But just in one week, we started having fights related to product and strategy.

He abused me one day, so I assume it means he got like physically violent or something. And I decided to leave the company and build my own product with different co founders. But it turned out not a good decision. I lost motivation, got depressed, and then my product wouldn't grow. And other competitors started making 100k a month in revenue.

Seeing that I became even more depressed and I just couldn't work. Okay. I almost want to laugh because it's so terrible. It's so like, like, you know, like a nervous laugh. This is so fucking tough. Uh, okay. But now I'm fine. But 2023 was not a good year. I lost this opportunity to become a millionaire and now I'm depressed.

I'm not joking. I could have been in the leagues of a hundred K per month. My competitor in early January was doing three, 3, 500 a month. And we were doing 500, so five times difference, and now they're doing 250k a month, and I'm doing 1k, so 250 times difference. But, but now I say, looking back, I realized my co founder was not a bad person.

It was just that if you meet someone new, it takes time to adjust to each other, uh, break the ice. And I was in a hurry and decided to quit this startup instead of trying to make it work. But it wasn't that easy to start something from scratch. So it was a good life lesson, but I regret it. And that's it.

Okay. So that is fucking depressing. Like, wow. This

Mattia: is hard, man.

Dagobert: Yeah. But like, so first things like, thank you, man, for sharing that. Like, you know, so I can't say his name, but like, thanks, man, for sharing that. That's awesome. Uh, wow. Yeah. So co founders. I had a co founder, I mean, my ex wife was obviously my co founder, but yeah, it's interesting what he says about, so I understand, you know, the, the pain of you see other people succeed and you failed.

So first of all, I think I'd like to say that it's not because his competitors are making a shit ton of money now that he would have. Because like it's, you know, there's so many things that can go, you know, maybe the other ones had like a better distribution channel than he did, you know, that he didn't know about.

Like there's so many things that go into it that it's not like, there's no guarantee that he would have succeeded. Um, but maybe he would have. And that also makes me think of luck. Like there's so much, you know, it's, it's, it's like, you know what I mean? Like, it's so, there's so, so many things that can go wrong.

And at the same time, like, you know, you just need like to be lucky. So he was lucky at the beginning and then he took like a hasty decision from like leaving the company. I mean, and like, how can you blame him if like his co founder like hit him or something? Like, you know, it's, it's a normal reaction. He doesn't want to work with someone like that.

That makes sense. But yeah, man. Do you have any, do you have any thoughts on it?

Mattia: Yeah, the, it, it, it's easy to say for us right now that results were not guaranteed success. Were not guaranteed. So, you know,

Dagobert: um,

Mattia: it doesn't matter how the competitor are going now, uh, because you, you don't know. There are many things, many opportunities involved.

Maybe you do the same things and for two different people it end up, it ends up in two different ways. Definitely even doing the same thing. So you don't know, uh, it's like, um, sometimes, you know, you could always do the same analogy with tweets. You write something that you know, you maximize your efforts.

For the engagement for the use for everything and then it doesn't work and then you post it another day Another time and things go Simply go and you don't know how

Dagobert: yeah,

Mattia: and so yeah, it's easy to say that but maybe he cannot This can help him a bit. And the other thing is like, oh, I feel sorry for what happened.

Of course.

Dagobert: Yeah

Mattia: co founders Like, joining a relationship with a girl, a man, someone you are dating. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, do you really know each other, even after a few weeks, months or so? I'm not sure, you know. Um, it's a two way relationship. So, it should work for everyone involved. You need to put in the effort.

You need to also share the same vision. If you don't share the same vision and you fight about it, I'm not sure how it could work. And

Dagobert: you

Mattia: know,

Dagobert: yeah, co founder thing, I mean, so hard, like, like to give you an example. So my, my ex wife was my co founder. And when we started Logology, we had been together seven years.

And we communicated a lot. We were very close. We knew each other, you know, but like, once you build a startup together, I think it's similar to what people report when they have a baby, it's like, it's challenging you so much that it's, you know, like some things are going to come out that never had the opportunity to come out and you cannot know beforehand.

So I think that you can't really blame yourself for like picking the wrong co founder because like, it's only once you do the journey that, you know. How this person reacts, you know, what are these person's fears? And like, does it trigger your own fears? And like, is it making things more complicated or are you compatible?

Like it's like, you know, like it's like so many people who have kids end up like separating in the first few years. Because like it challenged the relationship like nothing else. And so I think when you're like co founding a product, you will disagree. Like, it's so important. It's like your way of making a living.

It's your dreams. Like this, this guy, like was clearly dreaming of making millions, which is very understandable. You know, we, most of us start this way. So I totally understand him. And like, you're fighting because you both want to win. You both want, you both think you're right. And like, you have so many things that are coming up and like, so most people don't know, like forgot this, but like we even had a third co founder at some point that stayed with us for one year and it was the same, it was a friend of us and we thought, you know, let's bring him in.

He's going to help us with like marketing and stuff. And we, like, we thought we knew him and he thought he knew us and I don't even want to blame him because. You know, when he left, it was really like painful, really, really painful. I think he did things that weren't okay, but you know, I don't even want to blame him because I feel like I was shit too.

I was a shitty co founder. Cause like, again, it's like a relationship and there's nothing harder than this. You know, it's like a relationship, but like in a relationship, everybody's. Responsible, you know, it's very rare. I mean, it happens with like, you know, narcissistic people and like very, you know, psychotic people, but like that are very, like, there's only one person to blame, but usually if you're just like normal people, you just have like, everybody has shit in their closet and like, you know, and it all comes out.

And so I think he shouldn't blame himself for like leaving the co founder after one week, cause like, it's understandable, you know, after what happened, if he, if he hit him because. There was a hundred more opportunities to fight, you know, that would come up. So like, it's not like, you know, and, and so I think now that's why that's what I actually, I tweeted about recently.

Like, I will never build a startup with my wife again or with my partner. I will never do that again because it's just like, you're just going to make it 10 times harder to manage your relationship. So I'd rather have like a nice loving relationship and that's already hard enough to manage. And then, you know, if I have like, if I build a startup, I'm going to do it alone or find a co founder that is not also my wife or like my best friend.

Cause you know, it's not just about. Your wife or your partner. It's also like, if you have a relationship that matters to you, like your wife or your best friend, please don't fuck it up by building a startup together.

Mattia: Yeah, it's because you end up mixing too many things. And as you said, um, everyone, I, I feel like everyone is passionate enough because they want to make it work.

And in a two way relationship. You want to do the best thing, you both want to do the best thing, and that's why you fight. But, let me say that if it doesn't feel right, it's probably not right. So, when he left, he did a good thing to, yeah, to quit. Because, it's like when you, I did it, let me say I did it last year.

Uh, I went out with uh, With a girl two times and the first time I was like, hmm, I'm not sure I want to see her another time Because I like her but there's something that tells me she is not for me and the second time I saw her Yeah, I confirmed and I said, okay, let's not See each other again because it's not for me, you know, yeah Yeah, you know, it's not gonna step away when it doesn't like

Dagobert: and I think people shouldn't blame themselves For that because it's normal.

He didn't know that person and once he knew that person a little bit more he realized okay I'm not, I don't want to, you know, build something with them and I think it's okay. I actually think even it's okay, like, because like these things are going to make people reveal themselves and you, you, you too, like you will reveal yourself and then people can decide, Oh, now that I see this person for who they are even more, you know, do I want to continue?

And like, you can't know ahead of time. And it's probably most of the time you're going to split because, you know, it's hard to find somebody you're compatible with, especially, I think when you're an entrepreneur, it's even more obvious because the reason we are building businesses is we don't want to have anybody control us.

We want to be our own bosses. So if you start having disagreements, you're like, fuck you. Like I'm going on my own. Cause like, you're used to doing that. So you're not gonna, you're not going to compromise that much. You know, you're, you, you're convinced about your vision. So yeah, it seems like it's very normal.

Like so many, I think, I don't remember the data, but you look at like, why startup fail, the number one or number two reason is like, Co founder mismatch. And it's just like, you know, and it's also probably, you know, and again, it's like divorce when you have a kid or something, it's just, I mean, it's relationship, it's the most complicate, complicated things in the world.

And even when it works, maybe eventually you grow differently and you have different paths and then you separate, you know, like with my ex wife. So yeah, man, I really feel for this guy. And, but at the same time. What I would like to tell him is that, you know, if he did it once, he can do it again. You know, maybe not as successful as he hoped.

Maybe he's not gonna find like a 100 KA month revenue idea. That's easy to do, you know, he was clearly lucky with that. But, you know, if he keeps trying, uh, he will find eventually, maybe not a hundred k or maybe like a 10 K per month.

Yeah.

And that would be awesome. So it's very understandable what he's going through, but I think it's very common.

Like, I remember when I tweeted about, you know, the guy who was like the third co founder for a while and what happened and how it ended badly. A lot of people replied to me, Oh yeah, I had a co founder once. I will never do that again. Like, it's like so common that co founder, you know, stories, uh, can turn up badly.

So. Yeah, don't beat yourself up, man. I really hope, like, you can bounce back, like, I mean, you know, we're all going through this shit, and it's normal, you know, what happened to you, what happened to him, I think, it's, it's normal, it's, it's sad, it's depressing, and it's, like, very harsh when it happens to you, but, like, you know, when I had this fight with this third co founder at the time, it really, me and my ex wife, really, it really destroyed us, like, we spent months Feeling pain, pain about this because it ended very badly.

And he started fighting us. He, he took basically the domain name hostage because he had access to it. And he became like a very shady, like it became very toxic. And he was basically holding us hostage of that. And we couldn't work on Logology because he had the domain name. So like we were working on it, but we were afraid he would do something with it.

If like the negotiation didn't please him to like, you know, buy back his shares or something. And that was, that was, that was like very, very difficult time. We couldn't sleep. It was, it was terrible. So yeah, all that to say, you know, this is, this is real shit. Like when you're talking about business with someone and like, it's so important, you know, in its, in each person's lives that you end up, you know, triggering the deepest and darkest shit.

Yeah.

Mattia: Yeah. And it's also a breakup. And, like, every breakup, it's, you know, a mix of emotions. I would feel the same. I don't blame him. I would feel the same.

Dagobert: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It must be so depressing. Yeah. You feel like you had, you could win. And, it's funny, I never had that with business, but I had that with women.

Like, you know, you fall in love with a woman who's like, so beautiful, so amazing, and you go on a date with her, and like, you feel like, and then you somehow, she doesn't like you, and then you feel like, oh shit, and it breaks your heart. You know, cause like, you felt like you had something good, but you don't.

Yeah, to think of that. And

Mattia: it's so easy to think I'm not worth enough, because that's what happened inside you that you, you, you feel like you are not worth.

Dagobert: Yeah. Yeah. Be, yeah. Yeah. 'cause like, yeah, especially when it happened. Certainly when you kind, like, didn't deserve it. Like he's, it's not that he didn't deserve it, but you know what I mean?

Like, he didn't, like, he had like, he got lucky and so it made him feel that he was successful. And then it got taken away from him. And it's kind of like Gollum with his precious, you know, like you, he, he found like this precious thing that's giving, making him feel on top of the world and then somebody is taking it back.

And so he goes crazy trying to find the ring again, instead of just like. Working on himself, basically, but like, I just psychoanalyze Gollum, I guess, but you know what I mean? So that's weird, but that kind of like, and that feels like that's that, you know, you, you kind of like have this hope. And, but it's like, it's just, it was just lucky.

So forget about it. I mean, it's tough, but like, you know, forget about it and, you know, move on. It's like, it's like you had a winning lottery ticket and you lost the ticket. That's terrible. But you know, that wasn't real life. That was just a lottery ticket. I wasn't like,

Mattia: yeah. And you, and you can focus yourself on that last ticket.

[01:17:16] Outro
---

Dagobert: Yeah.

Wow. Awesome, man. So that was so cool having you, you know, and meeting you for the first time. Finally. I gotta say, I don't know how you feel, but you look better than your profile pic. Oh, so I think maybe, I don't know, maybe it's the weight or something, but at least for me, you look awesome. So at least the way that you have now seems to suit you.

So I just wanted to say that.

Mattia: Thank you. You look

Dagobert: great. So

Mattia: I know you are into girls, so don't worry about that.

Dagobert: I know,

Mattia: I know you really meant it.

Dagobert: Yeah, I really do. I really do. And, uh, yeah, my pink hair shouldn't be confused with, you know, something else, but yeah. Uh, yeah. I've been told, I've been told I shouldn't go into certain countries with this hair.

I've been told I shouldn't go to Hungary, for example, so I will avoid it, but yeah. So,

Mattia: yeah, but let's say it's like Antoine Griezmann.

Dagobert: Yeah, that's it. That's it. That's just for fun. I just want to have fun. But you know, yeah, yes, that was awesome having you, man. I'm really happy and that was so deep, such a deep conversation.

I really enjoyed it. I hope you liked it too.

Mattia: Yeah, it was, it wasn't easy because I'm, I get anxious, uh, like talking about things I'm not prepared for, but it was really, really, really cool. Also to talk with you on the, about those things. Because a few times I felt like, Oh, he really know what I mean. And I really know what he's saying right now, because I feel.

What it's saying, you know, there's some, there's something in your gut that tells you, ah, that's the feeling. I know it. I know it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so thank you for having me. And if you want, we can take a screenshot. Maybe I can publish it.

Dagobert: Uh, yeah. Do you want to take one? I don't even know how, how people do that.

Mattia: Not sure if you want to pause or something. Let's

Dagobert: do something fun. Let's be like, you know,

Mattia: Okay, cool. Thank you.

Dagobert: Yeah. So I will just like, we'll just say like kind of like goodbye, but then we don't, we'll just stay on the call a little, a couple more minutes, but we'll just say goodbye for the sake.

Mattia: I don't know when you, when you end it.

Dagobert: So yeah, man, that was awesome having you. So, oh yeah. And like, how can people find you? Like the, it's on Twitter, I guess.

Mattia: Yeah. Yeah. On Twitter. I'm hey, Mattia. Hey, like, uh, Hey, uh, I'm here and yeah, that's my website right now. I have a newsletter with the makerjourney. com. Um, I write. Basically, how my journey is going and I share things like the burnout, my Twitter plan when I, when I came back and yesterday I brought something like, Hey, this journey is tough.

So maybe resonate with you. Um, so if you want to check it out,

Dagobert: awesome. Yeah, we'll check that out. Like your newsletter and your Twitter. Thanks, man. That was awesome having you.

Mattia: Thank you. Bye.

[01:20:44] Bonus - chill convo after recording
---

Dagobert: So you, you were saying basically, uh, that you tweeted something very spontaneous and no, you talked about the runway and you don't care anymore. Yeah.

Mattia: Yeah. Basically I tweeted, yeah, really spontaneous that I have two months left of cash runway because you know, um, I spent most of my runway trying to survive when it was.

Basically, so not working, not earning. And I only spend money, uh, used to blame myself for that. Now I'm just in the shipping mode, you know, uh, also today I spent like four hours, maybe, yes, working on my app on the MVP. And I said that, that I'm, I'm trying to do my best. I don't want regrets. I want to try it even until the last day of my cash runway and then, oh, I don't know.

I will, I will go out and deliver pizza, you know, I will drive some Ubers. I don't know. I wrote that.

Dagobert: Yeah.

Mattia: Oh, sorry.

Dagobert: It's so funny because that's exactly how I feel like before my burnout, I was never having enough runway. I was always wanting more runway. I was always like worried. And now that I built out, I literally have zero runway.

I just have an unemployment benefits until end of October. And I literally don't give a shit. I know I will survive. I'm like, I, I, I, maybe I'm only going to start making money like October 1st or something. And maybe not. And I'm not worried about what's going to happen. I'm like, yeah, I'll see on October 31st what I do.

You know, it's funny. Why do you think that we don't care about that anymore? Cause it's so weird.

Mattia: Um, maybe because how I rebuild myself, my self consciousness, I don't know. I keep listening every day. To my feelings, to how my day went, how I feel about what I'm doing. It's not always positive. You know, there are tough days anyway, but I'm so focused on finishing my MVP and giving better access to the few close people I have already have.

Then yeah, the rest is worth nothing. I don't care. I don't care if I have only two months. And you don't know how many people told me, Hey man, I was there and I made it. You can turn it around, you know, uh, football matches last 90 minutes and you can do so many times you have 90 days now, so you can do it.

Uh, well, not that not 90, but it's okay. Um, and a few others also told me. Oh, I have a longer runway than you, but I feel like I'm in your same shoes. And I don't know why I saw them like my, you know, my closest friends. And I, I told them. Please don't burn out. Please mind about your mental health, your body health.

Don't burn out because if you have like 10 months ahead, it's a huge time to do things. But I used to, I used to think that it wasn't that much and I was always running, running, running behind.

Now,

now I know that I had all the time in the world and I didn't use it. So

Dagobert: that's, and that's funny how you said about running.

I feel like I used to run and now I'm just walking. Like before my burnout, I was always running, trying to catch something, being in a hurry. Now I literally don't give a shit. I've been through hell. I know. And I'm like, not scared. So I'm just walking. You know, I'm just like, yeah, I'm chill. I'm literally, I have a runway until October 21st and I'm taking my time.

I literally haven't, so it's like very little runway. Like I have like basically six months and like, and I have nothing right now, basically. And like, that's making money almost. I have things with potential to be fair, but like, it's not like make, it's not right now making a lot of money. And I'm like, and I feel so.

Relaxed. I'm like, you know, I've been through hell already. I don't give a shit. I like, I really don't, I'm not afraid. I am not afraid anymore. And, and so, and I'm also never going to sacrifice my health anymore. So, you know, the last couple of weeks I was focused on dating, for example, because I was like, I wanted to, you know, kind of like get to know what I wanted exactly.

So I did it a couple of women. I installed the apps, whatever, but like, it was kind of like my side hobby. And I just did that for a couple of weeks and it was like keeping me busy. And so I just did that and I didn't edit this podcast. So I took some, you know, some weeks that I was supposed to publish episodes.

I didn't publish them. I'm not worried one bit. I am not worried one bit. I'm just enjoying myself and I'm like, yeah, things are going to settle where they need and you know, cause like you need to put your health first now. So you're listening to yourself. And you kind of like learn to listen to kind of like an inner feeling that is like that you can trust.

Basically, I can trust some kind of like deeper instinct that even if some days I have bad news or what, like I can hear myself, I can hear like a deeper voice that knows, you know, that it's going to be okay, that it, that it can, because now that I listen to it, it kind of like gives myself confidence because by listening to this inner voice, I'm like respecting it.

And so I'm respecting myself and by respecting myself, well, I'm taking care of myself. And so because of that, I know that even on October 31st, if I don't make money, I will still respect myself and that's enough to be happy because I will respect myself. So I will figure something, maybe it will be a job.

Maybe it will be freelancing or whatever, or maybe we'll have a genius idea of the last day and I will make money from it. But, you know, like, it's like, once you listen to yourself, once you stop running, you can find confidence in yourself and then you can just walk. And you're like 10 times more powerful.

I don't know. You know,

Mattia: people who told me. That I was taking a huge risk, you know, I know it. Yeah, I Choose it, you know, it's like I feel stronger now, but not full, you know, I'm not fool I feel stronger. I feel more connected. Yeah, that's enough for me because back then I Lost my connection the connection with my inner self

Yeah.

And I was like, I wasn't listening. So you stopped listening

Dagobert: to your inner voice. You stopped listening to your instinct because you're in your head chasing a fantasy, like a mental fantasy. I'm going to make millions. I'm going to have followers. I'm going to be successful instead of just listening. What do I want to do today?

And, and I think for example, somebody like Peter levels, I think he's just always listened to himself and he just like find momentum. And he doesn't seem scared. He doesn't seem worried. He's just himself. And I think that's why he's so, well, triggering, but also very inspiring, you know, to see him because it's like, it looks so easy.

Well, it's because it is like, it can be easy if you trust yourself and that's very awesome. So yeah.

Mattia: Yeah. I hope to make it, but you know, I talked with my mother a few weeks ago with my parents actually. And my mother told me. I never saw you so confident, like, uh, like you are right now, that the only thing I could say to you is, you know what you are doing.

So, if it's okay for you, do it. And see what happens. And it was like, Oh, that's cool. That's really cool. Because you know, that's awesome. And she's right. It's my life when your mother said that, you know, mother are mothers are never wrong or maybe.

Dagobert: Yeah. I see what you mean. That's wonderful. That must be so cool.

I'm so happy. She said that to you and she's right. It's like, yeah. Once you, you basically find this deep confidence beyond the burnout that makes you You don't need the money to be confident. Now, like you used to chase money or like success to feel good about yourself because you didn't feel good about yourself initially.

And because of the burnout, you had to find inside you, like, you know, kind of like the deeper truth, and once you found that, you And you align yourself with that deeper truth, so you don't need to chase anything, you're good, and you're confident.

Mattia: Yeah, also, not sure if it happens to you too, but I laugh more now than earlier.

Dagobert: I always laugh, but I have a dark sense of humor, I was making memes, like, until the end I was like, making memes about my situation. But take things lighter, maybe, you mean? Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do. I've, yeah, yeah,

Mattia: yeah. I had like five unsubscribed for my last latest newsletter, and I was like, who cares?

you don't give.

Dagobert: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. There was a bot purge on Twitter, and I lost like 300 followers in a couple days. And I was like, I literally couldn't care. I couldn't, it was like, it's worthless. It's bullshit. Who gives a fuck? And

Mattia: there was a time that I used to look at it every day and the day that I didn't grow.

It was a bad, bad day, you know, I was like, I know, I know. Yeah. Fuck this shit. I don't want to do this anymore. And now I still don't care.

Dagobert: Yeah. Yeah, man. That's awesome. Okay. So that was a nice kind of like extra time discussion, you know, to go with the football analogy. So, yeah. So this time, real goodbye.

That was awesome. Having you, man.

Mattia: Love

Dagobert: you. That was cool. Thank you. And see you soon. Yeah. See you soon on Twitter and elsewhere. Cheers, man.

Mattia: Bye bye. Enjoy. Bye.