This Indie Life

[00:00:00] Introduction
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Dago: So funny, you have like basically, is it like marble, kind of like background, super fancy background, looks like very expensive. Yeah, this is

Dominik: all plastic. No, I bet it is, but it

Dago: looks expensive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So funny, dude.

Dominik: Everything in here kind of looks like, um, marble, but it's actually just plastic.

Like even here. I'm just like zooming down. You see this one looks super nice, but it's actually just, but that's what you get.

Dago: Where are you now? Are you in Bangkok?

Dominik: Yeah. Calling from Bangkok, Thailand. Finally back.

Dago: This is the place I get to go. Everybody's there. It seems like

Dominik: it. Like I do feel like on Twitter, it seems like more people are actually here than they are.

Cause I'm trying to sometimes scatter people around. Like I think most are just like hustling. That's what kind of like it is. So what I'm noticing is like, everyone is just like at home, like locked in their house and just like grinding, which is amazing. You know, like that's exactly how it should be. Um, but yeah, it seems like that's, that's, that's the,

Dago: I feel like that's the appeal of Bangkok is like for not too much money, you can be in a luxury apartment and just grind.

Dominik: Yeah.

Dago: That's basically the selling point.

Dominik: Yeah. A hundred percent. Like you have a gym in the condo. There's like a nice coffee machine back, like down in the lobby. And then. You can order food. Amazing. Super cheap. And like everything here is made for you to just like stay at home and focus on your business, which is amazing.

You just got to be a bit cautious to not get fully lonely. Cause you know, like if you keep doing this, like I did last year, I did it for like. Man, like maybe 40 days on row, you know, like just not going out, just being at home, man, that also like gets to you because like, you do need a bit of socializing, even us like nerdy indie hackers who love to be alone.

Dago: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I noticed that by going to a co working space this past couple of months and it brings such a balance to have real people in your life that you see often. It sounds so stupid to say, because it's basic human thing. But

Dominik: man, that's like, I think that brings such a balance.

Dago: Yeah.

Yeah. Cause like we talk about, Oh, you need to work out, you need to eat healthy, you need to sleep well, but we don't talk about, you need to see people and talk with them. That's like,

Dominik: man, I feel like it even starts at like, you don't even need to like talk to people. You just need to be in a place surrounded by others.

That's already sometimes enough for me. Like if I go, you know, to a coworking space and I don't necessarily know anyone, like even just being there and seeing other people work, you know, that's already like, you Nice and then obviously forget to engage with people even better. But um, yeah, I agree super important

Dago: So how long you've been back because I think you were like traveling you were traveling to Brazil and shit Like you basically had like a whole world Three

Dominik: months after Portugal went to Brazil for two months and then one month Buenos Aires Yeah.

Two weeks. Yeah. Buenos Aires. And then I essentially just exported Yerba Mate as everyone on Twitter kind of saw and brought it all the way to Bangkok now. And that's, that's where I am.

Dago: You mean export. I didn't follow what you just said.

Dominik: Don't worry. Somehow. Um, like recently, I think like a week ago, I made a post about like Yerba Mate, which is this.

Tea, like this nice, like caffeinated tea, kind of like coffee, but not really. Um, all the Argentines were saying this, but anyway, like I fell in love with this drink and I posted like just a picture on, um, on Twitter, like that I brought it, you know, to, to Asia and like, people went insane. It went viral. And like all the Argentines, they retweeted it and they all like, Like, let's go Argentina.

Like, let's like, we may need to export more yabba mata to the world. And I'm like, nice.

Dago: Okay. Yeah. So like reselling it on the black market. Dude,

Dominik: probably you can, man. Like, cause the markup here is like almost five to 10 X of the price in Argentina can get like half a kilo for like 3 and like here it's like 30.

So, I mean. That's

Dago: a little business here because like you have so many Indie hackers in Southeast Asia, you just become like the Indie hacker drink and, and you know, and you just sell it for like 10 times market. That's nice. Man,

Dominik: in typical Indie hacker, like, you know, mindset, like I've already been thinking, like, should I make a directory list for like, Yeah.

And stuff. And I was like, no, stay away from this. You know, like everyone's doing it with coffee and they're not making a single cent. They've been trying this for like years and nobody unfortunately is really making any money with this like super cool coffee speciality side. So exactly. Yeah. Stay a bit away.

But yeah.

[00:04:34] Everything becomes a side project
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Dago: I was talking about this with Lucas Herman in a previous interview and he, that I haven't published yet. So you, you cannot know what I'm talking about, but, and he. And we talked about the fact that when you're indie hacker, it's kind of like a curse because then everything becomes a side project.

Everything becomes a business. You can't just have fun. You can just like enjoy your fucking tea. You have to build a business around it as soon as you get excited. And

that's

kind of like tiring. Like you can't just be like, Oh, I'm just going to have a hobby that doesn't make me any money, you know? And.

Dominik: Yeah, man. Like I had, like, I had kind of like had the same thing with like film photography, cause I got really into film photography and I built this cool website for like, it's a, like a kind of like a light, like a wiki for like analog photography for cameras and film stocks. And I remember like back when I built it, I spent so much time back then.

I also learned how to code, like, like how to make the website and make it possible that I kind of neglected the entire hobby. So I, I gathered all the data, but I wasn't shooting anymore for like. Three months. And then I realized like, what am I doing here? Like, but the cool hobby just got replaced by me, just coding for other people to enjoy, which, you know, I don't know if that's like super great.

Let's not destroy all of our hobbies.

[00:05:54] Tinder as a side project
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Dago: Yeah, that's it. I mean, kind of like in between with one of mine right now, cause like my current hobby is basically dating and winning on the dating apps. That's like my hobby right now. And like, I'm getting, I'm getting so crazy over it. And I'm late. I'm spending money on it.

Like what I mean is like, I'm trying to find the best pictures. I'm going to get some photo shoots. I'm getting better clothes. I'm like, I need to win this game. Like, it's just a fun game to me now, you know, just the challenge. How

Dominik: do you, how do you attribute like a, um, like a goal or like, uh, what's the scoring?

Dago: Uh, I think it's just like the quality and the number of matches you get. Cause I get so little matches, but I think most men get very few matches. But I know that like, you can get like a top 1 percent profile or something and get basically all the matches. Basically, most women just swipe on like 5% of guys basically.

Yeah, there's, and it's mostly a pictures thing. It's mostly a pictures thing. Uh, and yeah. And so, yeah, and, and for a while I was like, you know, I was hesitant, like, yeah. Do I, and, and eventually I was like, fuck this, I'm gonna take this seriously. This is my side project now. And I was like, okay. I contacted a photographer in Paris and photography in like different cities and I'm just gonna like do this like fully and Okay.

And see how it goes. But

Dominik: like. Making pictures, like sexy pictures for

Dago: men. Not sexy, just like attractive pictures for my profile. But then as soon as I started doing that, I was like, this is the main problem guys have. It's like, we don't have good pictures. And because women are much better than men at getting cool pictures.

You know, that's what it's like. No, we're like self conscious about it. We're like, yeah, I don't want to go to this trouble of having good pictures. Fuck this.

Dominik: And we're too scared to ask our friends to do it. Cause it seems like, you know, kind of like,

Dago: I'm embarrassed.

Dominik: Like, yeah,

Dago: yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, if we just make this little switch, like we can, you know, clean up so badly, like it's so awesome.

So I'm, I'm like very like, you know, excited by it. And so I was already thinking, okay, I could build a product where like, You could find a photographer in a city near you. Like he knows exactly what type of photos to take. And you know, after like two hours, you get like this killer pictures and you have like 10 X to Tinder results.

So yeah, but for now I'm, to be honest, I'm, I'm managing to enjoy it as like a personal hobby because. I have ideas, but I'm like, I don't really want to get into it. I don't want to, you know, so I think like, I'm curious like how

Dominik: long this will stay a hobby because like, just from personal experience, like, I feel like everyone.

Like has been there, like trying, you know, how you, I don't want to say clean up, maybe that's a, that's the perfect term for it, but

Dago: like, yeah,

Dominik: man, like whatever, like after playing like the game or whatever for like, I don't know, maybe half a year, I got like really depressed. Just, you know, like these like short term casual things just, Oh, I bet.

Oh yeah. I don't know. But yeah, I mean, it's a fun, it's fun. Like, I think we develop, Oh, you know, it's nice.

Dago: The funny thing is, is it's not even what I want. I don't even want short term things. Uh, I mean, but I want to win the Tinder game. I don't like, it's not even about the people. It's about, I want to win this game.

Like, it's like, it's a game I want to win. I like, and then I want to just like find one and like, be happy with one person. I don't even want to have sex with like a hundred women or something crazy like that. It's not my. You know, uh, but it's more like,

Dominik: if you managed to find out the ELO score and like how it actually works.

There's a lot of shady science behind it, the ranking algorithm. But like, if you find out how to dominate Tinder, man.

Dago: Yeah. And that's funny because like for the past three weeks, I haven't, done anything with this podcast. I had so many recordings. I haven't edited anything. I haven't tweeted. Like I'm like, because I'm just doing that, like I spending my day working on that, like, it's just like so exciting to me to have like this new kind of like side project.

Dominik: Have you also looked into these like. Apps that are, I've never used them cause I didn't, like, it's such a hassle to do, but like, there's these like apps where you take a picture of your chat and then you like send it in AI and it comes back with like a better answer, which I think is a bit of a hit or miss, I guess.

But like people making like tons of money on this.

Dago: Yeah. I saw that. I haven't tried it. That's actually. I said, I think DMS is something I'm, I'm pretty good at cause I'm good with text. Uh, so I don't know, uh, and I want to get better too. Yeah. I don't know. But like this is, yeah, can

Dominik: you reveal to us, like what is the product if I understand correct?

What are you doing now is sourcing like photographers and I'm trying to build like a product around no, no,

Dago: no, no, I'm not, I'm not trying to do it. I'm just, for now I'm just experimenting on myself to find like, okay, what does work? Okay. I'm just like, cause I need to, cause I want to meet women. So like, I need to improve.

But like, and then I'm like, okay. And so what I did is that, I mean, there's this website called photo feeler. And like, I just like, it's funny, like I'm such an indie mindset now. I'm so used to these things that I have zero hesitation in paying for things. I'm like, Oh yeah, and I just basically spent 50 bucks on this website, sent like six pictures so it could write them and tell me, cause like it's people voting to tell you if you're a, if this picture makes you attractive, makes you look smart, makes you look trustworthy or not.

And then you just use your best pictures. Uh, and yeah, I just like, I'm just geeking out on this and I'm just geeking out and, and I'm, and I'm found this guy who has a channel on YouTube called playing fire. And he's very genuine. He's very cool. Like he's all he wants to sleep with a lot of women. So that's his name, but he's very cool, very genuine and has a very authentic vibe to him.

That's really refreshing.

Dominik: What's your opinion on Photofila? What I mean with the question is that, do you think that the people that are on there are sort of in the like selection bias, you know, problem as in like, who actually is rating your pictures there now? Like I always, like when I used it, I was like, who is actually behind that?

Like, is it like, you know, all the attractive women that I would be interested in as well? No, no, obviously,

Dago: no. Obviously it's other losers like us that are using the website, but, but that said, you know, you can still see like the relative difference between your picks. And it made me, you know, it's kind of like, yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's, I had like some pigs that I thought was good that I had ended up being like a five out of 10 and the pig that I thought was bad ended up having a nine.

And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. And then I show it to friends and I, Oh shit, that's a good picture. And that was like validating. Even though I would have never thought of using it. So myself, so no, I think it's good. It's, I think like, I think like if it was only attractive women, my score would be way, way less, way lower, but I think the relative scores between the pictures is like good.

I see. Yeah, that

Dominik: makes sense. That's a good argument.

Dago: So yeah.

Uh, side project and hobbies, man. It's, uh, So do you have any right now that you're managing, managing to do? So there was this coffee thing, but that you're not turning into a business.

Dominik: The, the Yerba Mate thing.

[00:13:32] Losing joy for his project
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Dominik: No, I, man, I'm almost like a bit the opposite now. Um, like, whereas I've been like last.

Autumn, I guess, you know, like I've been kind of falling a bit in a hole, whereas like I'm working on help kit where it's just like this software as a service, no code tool, which turns notion pages into a professional help center or documentation site. And so working on this for like two and a half, almost three years, this autumn, all of a sudden, like everything kind of came, I guess, like crashing down in the typical entrepreneurial rollercoaster.

I was just getting super like. Kind of annoyed by working on it. I've been doing it like every day, you know, for like so many, um, like years, basically, you know, doing it over and over and then help kid also stagnant a bit in terms of revenue back then. And instead of like me being actually like super motivated by like, Oh my God, let's get out of this slump, you know, let's see what I can do.

It like even trickled down further. I was like, Oh, all right. Like the, the numbers don't like, you know, like motivate me anymore. Like my notifications don't pop up. And so then combination with me, like getting a bit like annoyed, but, uh, just working on it, I was like, Whoa, man. And then like, I fell a bit down in that hole and I really looked for like ways to get out of it.

And I remember like whenever I kind of felt like this, I was working on like something new, you know, like just as a side thing. And so I relaunched this like film photography side, film types, like a new version that redesigned it and I just made it like nicer and have like some new ideas. And that really helped me.

Like I spend like maybe two, three weeks on it, just something new, you know, like That motivated me. I knew it doesn't make any money. Like now, first time actually, like last year, last month, I got like my first month like sponsorship was like 250. Like pretty nice. You know, like finally it made some money, but regardless, like I was just.

thinking about something new to do. So that's what I was working on. But one thing that I did notice now, especially because, um, like what I've been noticing now getting the motivation back, like, you know, for working on my main thing is that it really, like, sometimes you really need to put like your full focus on like one thing.

And like, I love to do sometimes side things. I think you should do them if they make you feel better. But like, you really got to like, You know, like boil down, what is the one thing that's actually working? In my case, it's Help Kit and I got my motivation back. So that's where I've been like, you know, just a hundred percent like now working on it again and finally like happy again.

But man, that was like, it was not great.

Dago: So you were feeling down cause like, okay, so it was, it wasn't growing anymore and you had lost kind of like the momentum and motivation. And so you spent time on side projects, kind of like forgetting about Help Kit. And that like helped you, you know, get motivation again.

So what, so what made you want to come back to HelpKit though? What made you feel like, Oh, okay, I'm ready to come back to it.

Dominik: Honestly, like, I think it was time. Like I, I was working on film types, like three weeks maybe. And then, you know, like launch day, people love the design. That was like a nice dopamine push.

[00:16:25] Being paralyzed to work on his product
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Dominik: And then after a while, I think the biggest problem I always had was like, I kind of neglected a bit, you know, the like other marketing distribution channels for Helpkit, because I didn't really know anything about SEO. I didn't really know anything about like, you know, like affiliate marketing. Just yesterday launched like an affiliate marketing, um, for Helpkit finally, these little things, you know, so I got like, it's like analysis paralysis, essentially what happens is like, I, wrote down so many things I could do, but I just couldn't decide on what to do.

And that made me so depressed that I didn't start anything for so long. And then just one day I woke up and I was like, this can't be it. Literally after the gym, Peter Levels, after deadlifting my own body weight, I came out of the gym and I was like, something got to change. And then luckily I just, um, I, I, it just changed, you know, like I just, all of a sudden I had this idea of like, okay.

Yeah. You know, start with SEO, like start small. And then like, like what I realized is I can like ask other people for help, you know, like something as a solo founder, you never really think about, so I reached out to other people that know much more than me. And I had calls with them and, you know, and like all of this motivated me so much because they shared their knowledge.

I had some paid consulting calls as well. So it's not like all free stuff. Like I paid like for mentorship, I guess. And that really, really helped

me, um, to get out of it.

Dago: Yeah, that's interesting how that was definitely a problem I had is

like, you have so many routes you could take and everything can be very overwhelming. And yeah, I noticed the same, like when you take a step back and you do something else, eventually like all of these little, stresses that you have about, Oh, I should do this.

I should do that. All these tiny, not really important thing. They kind of like settle. And then when you come back to it's like, Oh, I need to do this. So then you were like, okay, I'm going to do SEO. Like you weren't like hesitating between everything because it kind of like revealed itself to be, okay, that's the thing you want to do.

And then, you know, it makes it simpler. Like when you have 10 things in your head, like it's very, I, it happens to me all the time. You, you stop moving because there's too many things.

[00:18:32] Feeling down to only see success stories
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Dominik: Yeah, that, and I think one, one other important thing, especially is that you, especially when you feel down spending too much time on like social media.

And for us, especially on Twitter, where like survivorship bias is so high and you see everyone making like 5k MRR added in one month and you're just like sitting there and you're like, Okay, nice. I'm kind of happy, but I'm also like,

Dago: yeah,

Dominik: fuck you. Like I'm like struggling right now. And then everyone seems to be just making like millions.

And it, it like, I know deep down, it's not, it's like survivorship bias, but man, I get tricked every single time I see it. And then, you know, it's, it's, it's just like, that's why I also stopped being a bit active on Twitter. Like people ask me, like in my DMs, Hey, are you like, I've noticed you're not that active on Twitter anymore.

And I'm like, Yeah. Like just for my own like health benefit, I guess.

Dago: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's because, you know, like it works, you know, it works to talk about success. So people do that. Now the good news is it also works to talk about burnout and struggles. So that's what I started to do. But you know, it's, uh,

it's not even depressing anymore. Cause I'm kind of like, you know, out of like trying to build startups for a while. That's why I don't even care, but it's just boring. Even beyond being depressing, it's just fucking boring. Like it's just always the same updates. I mean, I'm always happy when I see someone be like, Hey, I just made my first money.

I'm always going to like support them. Cause that's awesome. Once it's like your 200th post on like how much money you made this month, like, like it has no value, you know? I mean, it has value for people who've never seen it, but if you're used to it, you're like, Can we talk about some of the shit guys?

Can we talk about something else? You know, I mean,

Dominik: man, like, honestly, like that was like when you and James started like the, the Monday, man, correct me the name Monday morning. No Monday podcast. I go, what is it? I don't know. That

Dago: was the previous name of his, I mean, he had another podcast with someone else that was called, uh, no more Mondays, that's like an awesome name.

But I mean, yours with James, what was the name of that one? It's called This Indie Life. Right. I might actually rename it now that I'm solo to Founders Therapy. But I'm not sure. Oh, that's a

Dominik: good one. I like that. Um,

Dago: cool.

Dominik: But regardless, what I wanted to say is like once you started like sharing a bit of your like more raw, you know, insights.

Dago: Yeah.

Dominik: Like that really helped me also to like, now that I realize it again, like that was like some, like sometimes the only podcast I was actually listening to was yours. And like, I was like, wow, you were the first time like actually speaking about like, not feeling great. You know, like IndieHackers kind of struggling.

And then I, um, then the first episode you, you published with Nico, like hearing his stories, like one to one to me, we're literally like almost same spot, you know? Um, so there's so many more probably that have that feeling, but yeah, on Twitter, you only see the ones that are like feeling great, which is good.

You know, like, I mean, I'm, I hope everyone's happy, but like, I don't know. Entrepreneurism is kind of fucking hard.

Dago: Yeah. And I feel like, I think also it's because it's hard to find a thing that works, uh, on social media and once people see that they share normal thoughts and they don't get views or they don't get engagement.

Cause like, I think to share something that's kind of like hard, it's not like you have to do it a different way. And so sharing something that's difficult, it's kind of like, it's, I think it's harder to write about failure than success. Cause if you write about failure and you're just depressed. It's not, it's not cool to read.

Like if you don't like, and so people don't engage with it. So you have to write it because like, if you just say, Hey, I made a million dollars, that's enough. You can just hide that. But if you just hide, Hey, I feel like shit, it's not gonna like, you need to write, I feel like shit, this is what's happening to me.

Kind of like have to open up and kind of like, you know, and that's, I think harder, um,

Dominik: You need to make yourself really vulnerable. And like, like I can emphasize why that is really hard for people. And like, I feel like. Sometimes maybe being vocal about this isn't the most important thing. I do think that sharing, like, like sometimes sharing your downs as well.

Like you, like the one thing you always see is when you share your negatives, people will comment like, Hey, I've been there too. You know, like, Oh my God, finally someone says this, you know? So. You always need like this one, you know, this one like brave person who is a bit more, I guess, out there to like actually, you know, express their actual feelings.

That's what you're doing, man. Like, so that, that's why I appreciate it.

Dago: And that's thanks. And what's funny is like, I think I interviewed like five people already, uh, and that I haven't published yet. I feel so bad about it, but whatever, I will publish everything. And so I noticed that. You know, you don't see them on it, on their social media, on their social media.

You don't see it. You don't see like the pain. And, but when you talk to them, you see, Holy shit. Like there's so many stuff. Like, I think that's why I want to call it Founders Therapy because I feel like it's kind of what it is. Like, it's like. I want to make this podcast kind of like a space where you can talk about, you know, what's happening because it's hard to do for a lot of people on social media.

So we would have this podcast and actually opened the Indie hotline. If you go to IndieLifePod. com, you have a hotline that you can like send messages to. Well, you can like, if you're a founder and you feel like shit and you can actually send me a video or an audio talking about it. And then I like, you know, mention it in an episode or something and react to it.

Nice. And I actually had my first submission yesterday. Uh, so I don't know, I probably make an episode dedicated to that, to like all the submissions that I had. Uh, I'll see. Oh, you know what, no, let me just like read it and let's just like react to it. Let's do it. Okay.

[00:24:33] Indie hotline submission: going back to a job
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Speaker 6: So this

Dago: is from Daniel. I don't know which Daniel, but that is Daniel. Uh, and so Daniel says, I've been freelancing since 2020 and trying to build side projects by myself or with friends, but none of them worked out. Financially, it wasn't too bad because I had savings, but it was starting to be stressful not being able to make enough money to live with side projects.

Then I saw people hiring like Sahil with Gumroad, okay, with high hourly rates and flexible hours. And I started to question, why am I trying to build a project to maybe reaching 1k per month or 10k if I'm lucky, when I can put my efforts into joining a company like Gumroad and make like well over 10k per month, just with four hours of work a day.

Okay. Makes sense. I started to think about it by the time you decided to quit indie hacking and get a job. Yeah. Cause like last year I got a job for that. Uh, long story short, I got a job like that. I've only joined this week, but already the relief that I have is quite big. And if I do well and continue with this job for a while, it's literally life changing.

I've always wondered why few people talk about it. I guess it's survivorship bias in Twitter, where most people want to hear the successes so they get amplified. But maybe there are people talking about it, but nobody reads them. I thought maybe you wanted to touch on that because I'm guessing many people don't even consider it because it's like failure, uh, as I thought until I started questioning it.

Good luck with the pod and the rest of the projects. Best, Daniel. Thank you, Daniel. Daniel. Yeah. What did you think of that, man? It was good.

Dominik: Man, I think he's like 110%, um, right in the spot, you know, like, I think that this is exactly what Like a lot of developers, like smart developers struggle with is the fact that like, you can like, if you're, if you look for it, it's not that easy.

Like, I think if every developer could find this amazing job for a four hour workweek and getting tens of thousands of dollars a month, like everyone would do it. Right. But if you can do find it, um, I mean, like there's like this common saying that if you, like, if you care about getting really rich, you Um, fast and you are like a software engineer, like making your own business is kind of a bit counterproductive because you just, it's so much easier to like, you know, fire financial independence, retire early, if you just save up enough and you are like, you just, you stay a normal, Software engineer.

Um, and man, like I, I really emphasize with that. I don't think it's in any way a failure in like even more. I feel like it's like he said that he feels relieved, right? Like that's exactly what you want. Like, what's the worst case that you can be worst cases that you continuously have to think about surviving the next month for the next months.

And then you're working on this like IndieHacker project and like, man, like building, for example, especially like software as a service. It is so draining and there are so many moving parts. You literally will feel awful most of the time. So if then all of a sudden you also have the money aspect, like you're not going to survive, like this is horrible.

So that's why I think, like, I was very, very lucky because I was still studying when Help Kit actually became rather profitable. I, I spent an entire year literally not socializing at all, like spending 16 hours a day working. Which, so I, I like, I did my fair share of like suffering and to, to kind of get there.

And like, I was, I was really lucky because I didn't have to think about like the monetary aspect at that point. But if you want to like make your own side project, like I would always say, try, like, try to be financially somewhat stable or have enough buffer because man, otherwise it's horrible. I don't know what you think.

What do you think about?

Dago: You

know, I really resonate with the world at like relief and that's how it felt. You know, when I got this job last year, it was like, I was so burnt out and so stressed out about trying to make money with the startup. And I felt also ashamed of failing and having to give up and going.

I think the worst thing was going back to a job, like, I mean, the idea it was doing it wasn't that painful. Yeah, but it was, it was a relief, but it was so scary to kind of like lose my identity, especially cause I was like, you know, uh, on Twitter and people view me as a certain person, you know, as a founder and I had like, I was getting some, uh, fulfillment from that.

And so, yeah, I felt so bad. I felt like such a failure for like not living up to the. Uh, Twitter fantasy, I was kind of like presenting, uh, but yeah, you know, like he said, like. It was such a fucking relief. Yeah. And like for months it was so good. And then eventually I was like, you know what? I'm good now. I feel recovered.

I want to start this indie thing again, but like differently, you know, I'm focusing on content, this podcast hiding. I don't want to build a startup right now, but, uh, but I had to listen to myself and, you know, and to feel better about myself. And, and I feel like you need to follow that. If it feels like, okay, this startup thing.

It's too much. Just like give up and do something else. It reminds me of somebody I met in like California, like 15 years ago. And she was like climbing like big mountains, like, like rock climbing, like big things.

And

she told me, you know, there was this mountain I wanted to climb and I started once and I did it.

And like, I failed after like a third of the road. And I felt so bad about myself, but I came home and then I did some other things. And later on, she tried again and then she almost made it to the top, but she failed again and then a few years later, she did it again and she, and she made it and that makes me think of that.

Like, you know, and maybe when you fail, like when I failed, I literally thought I would never going to do a startup again, you know, because I was too exhausted. But then, you know, if you really have it in you, it will come back. Like, you know, for me, I eventually came back to try again. You're

Dominik: back.

Dago: You know, we're in a different way.

So I think it's like, okay. To stop. And it's actually, and you can't know how, you know, cause we always say we chase freedom, but I feel so much freer now to know that, you know, like I have someone went to like October or something and like, And I feel relaxed because I'm like, yeah, you know what? If it fails again, I'm taking a job

Dominik: and

Dago: I have zero worries about it.

I don't feel self conscious about it. I don't feel bad about it. I know I can find a cool job like I did. So I know I'm going to find something that's cool. Not even like highly paid, but just like. good, good pay and that's enough and chill. And you know, that's okay. We, we can take 10 years to climb the mountain or we can even give up and say, fuck that mountain.

I'm just going to like, you know, stay in my cabin. Like who gives a shit? Like do whatever makes you happy, you know? So I love this.

Dominik: And I also, I think like I read somewhere that the, well, that's the most scientifically quoted quote of this podcast I read somewhere. But, um, I think people in the forties are statistically.

The ones that are, um, finally breaking through with like the really successful business. So just for like some, you know, like reference point, like people in the forties, fifties, that's the time when you actually like most of them actually really like have a successful startup. And then putting this in perspective, how many tries did they have?

You know, like maybe they've been, and like, Also, I think it's very important to in one thing that I, what I do notice is like, if you can find a job, That is, as Daniel described, four hours, you know, like a day, I don't know if you said a week, I think a day,

Dago: a day, yeah, four hours a day, well,

Dominik: yeah, that's, that's still really amazing.

Um, if, if that, like, if you can find this amazing, if you have that time. Maybe you can use it for like side projects, you know, on the side, like I wouldn't use the four hours more now to just chill and watch Netflix. Like if you're that type of guy, then I do think that probably like IndieHacking isn't something for you in the first place.

But what I want to get to is that if you do happen to like, you know, still want to IndieHack, but you're realizing, you know, your runway is getting shorter. And additionally, it's hard to like find a job that is not super demanding. It can be like, you know, still super demanding job, but you're getting earned and like you earn enough.

[00:32:58] Moving abroad to extend runway
---

Dominik: There is one option if you are, if you have the flexibility, if you don't bound to a family in a location, man, literally just going to Southeast Asia. And like, it sounds like I'm just shitting this shit all of the time. But like, if someone like. I needed someone to tell me this, you know, so that I realized what is possible with like all things in life.

You know, someone needs to tell you this. You can live a comp, if you come to Bangkok, like maybe it's not even your favorite city, but you can live here for like less than a thousand us dollars a month. And like, just live a nice life and can focus on your business, you know? So you can drastically reduce your runway and not your runway.

You can increase your runway and decrease your monthly costs by a lot magnitude that you would probably be used to maybe somewhere. If you have the flexibility. So I meet a couple of weeks here in Bangkok, literally the same happened to them. Like they've got burned out. They were living in, um, where we're living, man, I can recall somewhere, maybe it was in the U S but anyway, like we're spending like almost like 8k a month just on like expenditure when they come here.

All of a sudden, like they can't focus on their startup, you know, what is like. Eight months, what is like one month in the U S might be like five or six, maybe like in, in, in, uh, here in Southeast Asia. So that is a possibility. Um, Of course, there's like challenges to this as well. Like I'm not downplaying that, but like, I think you definitely, there are some options and like the, the most important thing is getting away from that.

Um, like you need to create this somewhat like security mindset, you know? Like if you don't feel financially secure, I think that's like the worst case. Cause then everything, you just start like being anxious all the time. And, and like, yeah,

that's, that's probably the worst position to be in.

Dago: Yeah, you know, that's funny you say that because like,

I like, so I have this unemployment benefits until October and then I have like my emergency funds of let's say 20 K.

Uh, that's all I have. And, and I have a car that I can sell for like 10K. And so I'm like, you know, and that's why I feel good right now. Cause I'm like end of October, if I'm not like surviving with, you know, podcast content, whatever, whatever I do by then. And maybe I will set, maybe dominate Tinder will exist.

I have no idea, but I'm like, you know, I can like take a job or I can sell my car. So I would have 30 K and just go to Southeast Asia and spend a couple of years there and fuck this, you know, and that is so, and I feel very free because of that, because I have all these options. I can have a job, I can live in like a less expensive country.

Yeah, there's something very freeing about allowing yourself to go out of the normal route, you know, of like the route of like, Oh, you need to like have more and more expenses. You know, you need to have all this thing and eventually it builds up, you know, even right now I'm single. I almost have no expenses, but I live in France.

I have a car and I basically I spend three 3K per month. Yeah, I don't do anything. I mean, I do a bit because now, you know, I spend a bit on like dating apps and like clothing right now, but you know, but that's like not that much, you know, uh, even if I was doing actually nothing, even if I was doing actually nothing, I would spend 2, 500.

Dominik: Man, there you go. Like that's the, and like, you can boil this down to like half of it, probably in Southeast Asia, if you want to like very easily.

[00:36:33] Sponsor: microassets.co
---

Dago: Just taking a small break for conversation to talk about this week's sponsor. Now don't skip. As you know, I'm very selective with the people I let sponsor this show. I've said no to many people already. And when I say yes, it's really because I really like the founder. I love their story. And I think it can be useful to you.

And this week's sponsor is called Microassets. The founder of Simon reached out to me over Twitter DM a couple of weeks ago. And I mean, his intro was pretty interesting. Is he said, Hey man, I would love to support the show. Thanks. But I can't afford like the 400 for a sponsorship right now. Do you think we can work something out?

And I was like, you know, yeah, you know, just tell me your story and we'll see how it goes. You know, cause what I care about the most is like the story. Is it interesting to you guys? And also is the product interesting. And he told me his story and I loved it. So let me actually read that to you. I was pretty tired and disappointed with Acquire.

com. They started out championing all the bootstrap makers and won people over, but now, they're not interested in the type of maker who is featured on your podcast. So, that means, small indie makers. People are making a ton of great things, but you know how hard it can be. Sometimes, you decide you want to sell and move on to the next thing.

It becomes too much of an uphill battle. But ever since Acquire. com became funded, it's no longer solo bootstrapper friendly. They don't want our business anymore. Look at all the new fees they introduced and how they dictate the price of every listing. So, Microassets aims to be a credible alternative to Acquire, as easy to use, and built by founders for founders.

We will never take VC cash. On the website, we put the manifesto and we plan to stay true to that. I realize though that this is more of a rant at Acquire at this stage. So when I got his DM, to be honest, I really liked it because I liked his passion. And you know, it made me feel about how a lot of us start in this journey.

For example, me with Logology that I started six years ago, I was fed up with all these shitty logo generator websites that pretend to be awesome, but they just use basic icons from common libraries. And we thought with my ex wife and co founder, we could do better than this. You know, and I really saw myself in Simon when he sent me his DM because I'm like he was frustrated with acquire.

com And since then, you know I done some digging and I can confirm that he's suffering from a real pain point of like not being able to sell or Buy tiny indie project and he was like, you know what? I'm gonna do something about it. So I checked out his website And first thing that I noticed is that it's incredibly simple.

Like you just sign up initially 10 seconds and then you can see the list of projects. You have no fees, nothing to pay. It's only if you want to make an offer or sell your project that you need to buy the very inexpensive membership, but they're not making money based on the transactions or taking a percentage or anything like that.

It's just like a small fee and you can get access to the listings and start doing business with other indie makers. And the best thing about it, I think, is it's for small indie projects. Even if you have a tiny website that you're not really sure what to do with anymore, you can list it on there, put it for like 500, 1, 000, 5, 000 and see if you get any offers.

You can even not set a price and just see if people want to buy it. And I think that's actually very useful for us founders to see what's the value that we can get from the assets that we build. And with something like acquire or bigger platforms, it's more complex, you know, it's for bigger deals. But with this thing, it's really just like an ads website where you put like your website, your metrics, and you start, you know, directly talking with people who might potentially want to buy it.

Or in the reverse, you can find kind of like tiny products that are already built, but that maybe don't have a lot of traction or that, you know, the owner wants to get rid of. And you can get a kickstart on a new startup idea right away. And so if you are interested in microassets, Simon actually gave me a coupon code for us to use.

So it's IndieLife, I N D I E L I F E, and it gives you basically 30 percent off either monthly subscription or annual. And like, if right now I was still owner of Logology, my previous startup, I would like list it instantly just to see how much I could get. Because I think just knowing and having a couple offers, it can completely change your mindset and make you think, Oh, wow.

Okay. I don't just have like a little revenue. I also have an asset that I can sell and make money from. So it's a no brainer to me. You know, whenever you have a startup with some traction, list it on some marketplaces to see how it goes. Okay. And from what I've seen so far, microassets.co, it's the best marketplace for us indie makers.

They have no fees. They are made by other indie makers and it's incredibly simple. You can get offers in literally minutes. So I would highly recommend you check it out. microassets.co. Thank you, Simon, for supporting this show. And now let's go back to our conversation.

[00:41:51] Being too comfortable at a high-paying job
---

Dominik: Um, I do want to like address this one point, maybe someone is listening and it's like also in that position. Cause I've, um, seen and heard about this a lot as well.

And that is that if you find yourself in the other position where you like, Um, you've been a software engineer for like a remote company. You've been making like a good amount of money for a long time. You know, I've met quite a few people that were like, they're not really handcuffed or like, they just, you know, they, they really want to start their own thing and they want to try something, but they just, They are like so comfortable in what they're currently doing.

And like, I've met like maybe like two people over the course of like the last few years traveling that like, from like the first time I met them, they keep saying, Oh, I'm going to make this business like in a week. I'm going to start this business. I'm going to do this. And then like four years later, they still haven't done anything.

And I do feel like if you were like, if you are like financially a bit stable and you're a software engineer, especially, or like you're like in something that is like, you know, Um, knowledge base, you know, like, like sectors, like all of us listening to this, like maybe take the leap and just try something out.

Like, like you said, you can always be safe in the back of your head that you can go back to something else. Um, like you don't have to work for this company for the rest of your life. Maybe just try something out or try it on the side. Like, but the problem with this is like, I just keep hearing, um, people like most people, they are really occupied with their, you know, day job.

Like they want to go home and then, you know, need to chill a bit. Cause if Oh yeah,

Dago: I never got how you could, I never managed to do a side project when I have like a full time job.

Dominik: You see these indie hackers, they have like kids and a side job, they are freelancing and you know, like are indie hacking. I mean, I really don't know how they do it, but like, that's like the most insane like achievement from like, from what I've seen so far.

Um, I do hope they are mentally well. And

Dago: you know, and a family is kind of hard cause like.

[00:43:43] Finding a partner who's ready for the indie hacking lifestyle
---

Dago: So I didn't have a family with Lucy, which was just like us, but like, that's still kind of like a family and we didn't have kids. I mean, but I noticed that she didn't have the same kind of like mentality about this.

And so that was harder for me. Like it was hard to be like. Cause I was like, yeah, I want to go to Bangkok and say like, yeah, I don't really want to go, but you can go, you know? And she wasn't like, she was cool about it, but like, it's not the same. You know, she was, she wouldn't like come with me for like six months and live with little money.

That's not her thing. You know, she wants to stay, you know? And, and like, and I feel like that's pretty hard because it made me feel way more pressure to kind of like, I mean, it made it more difficult, basically, because, you know, you had to, you, you couldn't just leave and have like very little spending, spending, like, you know, I had to maintain this whole thing.

And, and I think like when you have a family, wow, it must be awesome. If you find someone that's actually the kind of woman I'm looking for now, but like, who's really like gonna be on board with everything. And, you know, be like, you know, let's go. Like I see, I don't remember how they're called, but like, you know, these two founders, uh, who are like on a sailboat.

Uh, I don't remember the name of the guy, you know, this

Dominik: guy and this, yeah. Okay. Jameson

Dago: Daniel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Leave me alone. Awesome. Like, uh, newsletter kind of not, uh, you know, email spam thing. And so. And, and I see them and like, they seem like both have the same mindset. Like they just want to be on a boat and travel the world and IndieHack.

And like, holy shit. Like this is the thing. And I don't think they have too much spending, you know, must not be that expensive.

Dominik: Well, I don't know, man. It sounds expensive to like be on a boat, but I, I would imagine. But

Dago: if you have nothing else. If you have nothing else, but anyway, maybe, maybe it's expensive, but that's not even the point.

Like they could, they seem like they would have the same vibe, you know, whatever. And just say, and yeah, and I feel like. It must be so hard when you have like, let's say a normal wife or a normal partner and, and they don't, they're not into this mindset. And so there's the, and even you have, if you have kids, like, and it's like this tension between, cause it's kind of like also a quest for freedom, especially when you're a man, it's kind of like a deep thing.

Like we have, like, we want to be free. We want to be like, you know, being monk mode, monk mode and just like, you know, go crazy. It's a very kind of like a men thing to do. And. And yeah, you know, finding someone who's going to be okay with that, you know, like Nico said, basically what works is that he has like a long distance relationship.

So yeah, that's one way like I'm not into that, but you know, that's one way. And so, yeah, you know, it's, uh, cause like, cause it's kind of sad to have to be alone in this. Yeah. Uh, I actually would like to speak to Peter Leavels about it because now he has his, uh, what I thought was an AI girlfriend, but then I realized, Oh, it's a real woman, you know, because like he kept showing pictures of her and like, and, uh,

Dominik: she's nice.

I met her. She's real.

Dago: Yeah, no, I know. I mean, he told me, I was like, Oh shit. Cause I kept making jokes about, about it. And then I realized she was real, but so, and so, yeah. Like, how do you find someone, you know, who's going to be on board for that?

Because, you know, because I want a family, I want kids one day, and I'm like, but I don't want it to be like, I don't want to have to feel like, Oh, I'm going to have fun for the next few years, make money. And then I, I, I have a boring life. I don't want it to be this way. I want to be like. Keep pushing to whatever you want to do and find someone with whom you can do that.

And even the kids would be on board and that would be awesome. You know what I mean? This sounds very hard to find though.

Dominik: I think, yeah, man, you're explaining probably like the finding a, you know, needle in a haystack kind of issue that every, I guess like every, you know, entrepreneur has be like, you know, female or male, like you want to find someone that can like keep up your pace in a way.

I think maybe even more importantly can understand. Like, the struggles or the weird shit you go through, like, You know, sometimes you meet, like sometimes maybe you have a date scheduled, you know, for like 7 PM. You've been planning this maybe for like a few days and then your server crashes. I mean, man, like good luck going on that date.

You can't like, I couldn't, I would need to stay at home, cancel the date. And then. You know, it trickles down if you're horrible, she feels horrible, maybe a bit pissed, you know, it's like this. And then, and then, but you need someone that is like somewhat flexible. It's, I mean, I can understand if someone is pissed, but they are like, all right, you know, like, that's him.

I love him for like being this ambitious, you know, like, I think it does create like being ambitious is a really, Big important trait, I guess, like in terms of attraction, especially for men. So that exists, but like, I mean, I've been like, I've been, you know, like in this, like in this situation, like, I mean, few times and now, um, for like past like eight months, been in a relationship again, and it's amazing.

And. I like the interesting thing that you just mentioned is like, um, so for her, like she, she, like, I'm not really sure, like before me, if she like was together with someone who was like really, you know, super entrepreneur and then like ambitious, you know? Um, and so there were definitely like some little hurdles, I guess, like nothing crazy, but like, I had like, sometimes to sit down with her and just be like honest and be like, look, This is kind of like how my life looks like I am like, I like to make compromises.

Um, that's, I think what a relationship is about, but like, you know, like my, my, my priority, you know, it's like, there's kind of like hustle, you know, right now I want to grind, I want to, you know, get to like financial independence, retire early stuff, you know, want to make enough, like a few millions, you know, that's my main mindset right now.

I do need someone who like kind of can understand that, you know, and it's not easy. Like we, we had, we had a few talks and, uh, she does understand it. Um, and I think like it's getting better and better the more we talk about it. Um, and, but like, honestly, I, I cannot look underneath the surface, you know, like, I don't know exactly how she feels about it.

Like I can only imagine for most. People, the things that like even normal friends, let's say like your male friends, you know, they don't understand like that sometimes you just cannot make it to an appointment or that you maybe need to stay three days at home being isolated and just cold, you know? Um, so it's a big challenge and especially the part of separating, um, like still keeping your routine and doing your own stuff versus, you know, having a partner and like also juggling this is super hard, but I've never.

Like it's the first time for me that I'm like trying to figure this out. So it's also like you said, kind of like a game. It's interesting. It's an experience. Um, so, but yeah, but like, I honestly, I think it's freaking, freaking hard to like find someone that understands you. And then my, my, my personal opinion was, and I think coming back to the thing you mentioned with Peter, at least that's how I rationalize it.

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but like, you know, When Peter, like I had like girlfriends before as well.

[00:50:47] Do you become more chill as you get successful?
---

Dominik: So it's not like that, but like, um, I feel like if I would be in Peter's situation, maybe at Peter's position, I would be a bit more like, okay, I don't really have to like super struggle now, like sitting on my laptop all day and really trying to make it.

I'm a bit more chill, you know, I can. Chill out for a day. If my girlfriend wants to, you know what I mean? Like it's a bit, uh, I would, I would love to talk to

Dago: him about it. Cause I doubt, I doubt, I doubt that he changed anything. He seems to have the same vibe, at least from Twitter. He seems to be the same.

So maybe, maybe, and I think, and if I put myself in his shoes, like it becomes who you are, so it's not even like, cause you know, you said, yeah, it's the grinding phase and that's true, but I think. That's what you love also, you know, that's what we love. So that's like, what gives meaning kind of like to our lives, you know, kind of like, it's like the way we want to live now, of course, do you have like, it's probably a bit less painful once you're like more established and you can find more balance and have more time for other things, but like.

It's still going to be your priority and it's still going to be what you want to do in life. You know, he seems so invested into his like new photo AI, you know, kind of like try on clothes thing right now, which looks awesome. So, you know, he has like purpose in his life. He knows what, and so there's no point in like, you know, his life would become shit if he starts focusing on his girlfriend all the time for like six months.

I mean, I bet because like, if you just do that, like you lose purpose in your life. And so, you know, Oh,

Dominik: I think of like us having like this kind of purpose like this. Like I told this actually to my girlfriend, like the other week, like I need to be working to be somewhat happy and feel fulfilled. Like if I don't work for like three days straight, I feel like miserable.

I mean, you know, like I think for some, like, especially like, I told this to my mom like years ago. And the first thing she said is, Oh my God, you're a workaholic, you know, like you just love to work. This is dangerous. Or like, I don't know, whatever, like, you know, like typical mom stuff. But I mean, to a certain extent, but like, honestly, like keep doing what makes what, what, you know, deep down makes you happy and keeps you motivated.

Like that's the first priority and everything else. You've got to work your way around it, I guess. Cause otherwise the worst thing you can do is feel miserable. yourself, right? It's the whole idea of like putting yourself first before anyone else. Like it's not like egoistical. It's more like you need to be happy to make other people happy, you know?

It's mental health. It's like,

Dago: you know, you need to put the oxygen mask on you first kind of thing.

Dominik: Oh yeah. That's a great analogy as well.

[00:53:15] Telling his parents he will be a millionaire by 30
---

Dago: So you said that you talked about your mom and it's funny because you told me before that you told your parents you'd be a millionaire by 30. You kept telling that to your parents.

What's the story of that?

Dominik: Man, I mean, literally as it is, like I, I just, whenever like I started indie hacking, which was like maybe three, four years ago, I, I saw Peter like making almost millions back then and like the little startups, you know, and then I made an app that made like a hundred dollars a month.

And then I was like, nice. I can like. 1000x, let's see where we going. You know what I mean? And then I told my, and then I just started as a joke. I told my mom like, Hey, um, you know, at the end, like when I'm 30, I'm going to be a millionaire. And, uh, first she was like, ha ha ha. But now for whatever reason, I think cause she saw, you know, I've been like coming more successful with what I'm doing.

And she like, saw like, also like, you know, help kit, like how much it's making, et cetera, et cetera. So that essentially. She now actually, like every time we call almost, she's like, so are you a millionaire already? And I'm like,

Dago: rooting for you. And I'm like, I

Dominik: know she's making a joke, but like deep down, I'm like, I don't have this like weird family.

I need to prove myself. Shit. You know, like I don't have that luck, but I have it for myself. Like I told her that I'm going to be a millionaire by 30. So I'm going to be a millionaire by 30. Like, you know, I'm like, Like that's it, you know, so I have this extreme Well, you're on your way, like

Dago: you're, you're, you're like, you're, you're on the path, you know, so I'm

Dominik: on the path, but like, honestly, like still, like every day I wake up and I feel like I could, you know, like I want to make, I want to make more.

I want to be, I want to be somewhere where someone else is right now, like every day, like I feel this. And I don't, I, like, I think in my head at least, like before I not be able to like Do like, at least like a lean fire, IE, like making it enough. So like worst case, yeah, like I just, I don't sure, like I can like, you know, like really breathe through, but I do think it's a bit of, uh, like rationalizing this with myself.

Like I also need to be a bit more realistic in terms of like, You know, if I not reach a million when I'm 30, I'm not gonna kill myself, you know, like, I'm just gonna be okay. Let's see, you know, like, like I need to be a bit, you know, like my ambition is there. I'm gonna get there, like, for sure. But even if it doesn't happen, like, okay, you know, like, at least I have some runway.

Like, I'm not like really scared. That's I think the way how I feel like there's

Dago: so much. There's so much luck involved as well as well like you definitely have to work hard and shit but like a lot of people work hard do the right things and It just doesn't pay off, you know as quickly as they want like it's it's really like, you know and I feel like I don't really, I'm kind of like tired of this bullshit about enjoying the journey.

I think it's actually a red flag sometimes. But, uh, cause like, if you got to enjoy it, if you got to remind yourself, you need to enjoy the journey, maybe like all the time for so long, maybe like it's not your journey, man, you shouldn't be on this journey. Like if like, you know what I mean? Like it should be kind of like default enjoyable.

Uh, I'm not enjoyable, but at least, uh, you know, easy kind of, it needs to come from inside.

Dominik: What, what is interesting to me, I have like sort of same, like, I think as Nico, like mentioned this, you know, like every day I kind of feel a bit anxious, you know, just like, what if this happens?

What if this happens? You know, like there's like little freaking things that could happen.

[00:56:46] The fear of his servers crashing down
---

Dago: Like what kind of

thing could happen that are scaring you?

Dominik: I mean, like, like honestly, my biggest fear, like every day is I wake up and somehow all my servers are like burned. Someone hacked into my account. They found my 2FA codes.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dago: Yeah,

Dominik: man, they just cancel all accounts or they, um, they, they, they, like even worse shit, they put like a porn site on all of my customer site, you know, like whatever, like, Oh yeah, kind of like irrational things, of course. And like, I put so many things in place to like prevent this cause I get paranoid, but like, I mean, you know, like it's, um, It's these little things, I think, like, especially for like, for me, for example, cause

like,

like it, it's sort of like, what do you call it?

Like a lifestyle business. I'm dependent financially right now in this business, you know, this is it. Right. So if I push out an update, for example, like for help kit, you know, happy has like hundreds of like customers and like help center sites and these help centers have. They have, um, obviously customers that are visiting their site.

So it's a exponential, is it exponential? I don't know. My math is not mathing, but there's much more people involved than you think than the initial customer base. Right. So if I push out an update and I mess something up. Man, like, you know, like there, everyone will know, not everyone, but people will notice.

And so like, whenever I push an update, like I started out doing updates, like at specific times where I know there's less traffic, so I can stuff if it happens, but like finding that path, like going there, I had moments where like, even like last year, no. It was like two years ago, like with, um, in Bali, it was like 1 a.

m. And I messed an update up. I published it at night because it was easier because of the traffic. I, I messed up an update, man. But then to

Dago: fix

Dominik: it,

Dago: you have to spend the night. Yeah.

Dominik: Yeah. My heart rate was at 160. And imagine like needing to focus, you know, coding while your heart rate is at 160 and you're not really sure what the problem is.

And it's just like little things like that are. Messing with me like insanely hard, but I chose this path. And I think like over the past few years, I got really good at this, but like, did I take some, um, you know, like, I think Avid Kahl talks about this. Like he has this, like, um, I think he'd get like Slack notifications whenever the server went down and he still has like PTSD whenever he hears the Slack notification bubble, you know, I have the same, like I have the same, but like just with a different thing, you know, like every time I see that, like maybe.

You know, like what a customer reaches out and says like, Oh, the site is not working. Even if the site is not working because they messaged something up, you know, maybe most of the time,

Dago: that's what happens. I

Dominik: guess most of the time, like maybe they forget to like their credit card tried to be charged five times and it didn't work out.

So I had to pause their account, you know? And, but the moment I read the subject line, my site is not working. I'm like, My life is over. And so,

Dago: you know,

Dominik: like it's just these little things that continue to be on your mind. Why? While it's like, I like, and it's always the side is green on the other side. I see like all these like super cool notion template creators, you know, they create a template and then they sell it and they make like 300 K a month.

Gumroad

Dago: product. It cannot go down. Yeah,

Dominik: exactly. And like, don't get me wrong. I, they probably have issues that we don't know about. I would be curious to have one of these on. Maybe they share like their side. Cause for me, it looks like they have their, at least like mindset wise, the easiest like struggles, but I mean, who knows, you know, but like for me, I see them.

No, but like, you

Dago: know, I mean, I, I sold like an info product with my Twitter of course, and there is no problem. There is no hidden shit. So I'm like,

Dominik: Man, I like, it just, I would love to chill here, not build a SaaS, but build an info product and just make money. And then like, you know, sometimes the cool customer support and be the happy man.

And like, you know, but yeah, that's like my path chose me to be in a different position and I'm grateful I'm here, but I'm just saying, I think like running a SaaS, you know, like as a solo founder, especially like, um,

Dago: yeah.

Dominik: But then again, there's things to mitigate.

[01:00:47] Forget building glamorous products
---

Dago: You know, Daniel Vassallo was talking about this years ago.

He was saying, cause he started with a SaaS, I think, indie hacking, like four years ago or something. And he was like, so like impossible to make money and like, so, so hard. And then he started doing info products and he made a hundred times more money way easier. And then he got into small bets and talking about, you know, which I think is very awesome idea.

Also, because like with the success of my Twitter course, I think I made like 80 or 90 K from it, and that was way easier to make than with a SaaS, at least for me, because I haven't been successful with SaaS, but, and there's this kind of weird feeling of like wanting to take the.

easy way. And I kind of feel like, you know, kind of like I said earlier about being, feeling ashamed of going back to a job because it's less glamorous. I feel like going from, Oh yeah, I'm going to build incredible products and I'm going to be an entrepreneur to just being like, I'm just going to like sell sponsorship slots on this podcast.

And so like an ebook, that's going to be how I make money. I feel some shame around it because this seems so less glamorous in a way, less successful, let's say. less badass. But man, this is what this burnout taught me is like, fuck trying to look good. Fuck trying to be this persona and just be like, you know, what's the easiest way to be fulfilled and happy?

Like this guy earlier, like Daniel from the indie hotline who said, like, you know, I just going to take this job. And so it's kind of like a balance to find between wanting to have like, kind of like a life that's exciting, kind of like a, you know, like a life that you can dream about that you're proud of.

That's very important. But also, you know what, fuck this shit, man. I'm just going to do what I want. I'm going to sell info products and I have some shame around it, but I do it, you know, with all my heart, people are happy, there's no harm done. It's awesome. It's positive. So why not? You know,

Dominik: Yeah, man. I mean, like, I think you in particular have like this, just like kind of, um, what is it?

Yeah. Like I want to be cool. I want to, you know, stick out. I want to have, like, I want to make something super, super, super special. What is like, you probably don't even realize that like 99 percent don't even think about that. You make like a. Yeah. Now an info product and that's like less cooler, you know, like nobody even thinks about this, especially like the amount of like work you put, I think you could probably put in like 30 percent less work and people would still think it's super cool.

Um, that's maybe something you kind of need to work on as well as like this perfectionism. At least that's what I see. Like you work, like the tiny pixelated things, you know, we all love, like the, everything needs to be super, super perfect, but like, that also runs you into like all that, like, you know, analysis, paralysis, bullshit and stuff.

Dago: But look man, I'm working on it. Look at this fucking background. It's not perfect because I didn't align the fucking shit and I was like, you know what? Fuck it. I'm doing it this way. I like the lighting is not even good. So yeah, I'm definitely working on that. Yeah. But you're smart. Your pink hair, just

Dominik: like blending it out and just hiding it.

Dago: Yeah. Nobody's everybody's focused on the hair. So like it doesn't. Yeah. Okay.

Dominik: Nice.

Dago: Yeah. Cool.

[01:04:09] Having his first gray hair at 26
---

Dago: Uh, one thing. Speaking about hair. You had your first gray hair, you said?

Dominik: Oh my God. Yeah. I had my man literally like my girlfriend. Um, I feel like I'm like repeating what Nico said, like, we're so similar when it comes to this.

Um, like I, I tried to get him out of his house here in Bangkok to meet him, but he is so hustling. So like, I, I feel like it won't be possible. Um, but like, yeah. My girlfriend, same thing. She like looks at my hair one day in bed and like, wait a second. Why do you have gray hair? And I'm like, I don't have gray hair.

She pulls it out. And there's like, you know, like three strains of like gray hair. And I'm like, okay. Googling like, is it normal for a 26 year old to have gray hair? And then like, people are like, it can't be genetic, but it can't be stress. Do you have stress? And I'm like, Like probably more than like, I was

Dago: born in it, molded by it.

Yeah.

Dominik: Like, what does it mean? Like reduce your stress. I love like when people say reduce your stress, like, yes, I work out. I do some, like, I go to the sauna sometimes when I'm like feeling nice. I do some breath work, but like, man, I still feel stressed. And

Dago: yeah, it's like, you know,

Dominik: like, like, yeah, anyway, so she saw that and I got like, Um, I asked her like, what do you think?

And she's like, Oh yeah, it makes you a bit more mature. And I'm like, okay,

Dago: yeah, right. Yeah, it does. Yeah. You know, that's also why I having pink hair cause like I have, I mean, you have your first gray hair, but then you have 10, then you have a hundred, then you have a thousand, so,

Dominik: but so isn't it cool to be a silver Fox?

Is that what they call it?

Dago: Yeah, but you have to play the maturity card so that like you have to change that like if you're like acting too young It's gonna look weird. So I see so, you know, it's weird to have like Silver Fox if you're only wearing hoodies It doesn't really work, you know, you need to be kind of like, you need to be silver fox with kind of like a suit and that's sexy, but it's just like, you know, so like, it's kind of like a, so I think to cling on to my youth with pink hair, but eventually I will own the silver fox, you know, style.

[01:06:19] The endgame of retiring early
---

Dago: So yeah, man, do you feel like there's a way out of this, like for you to eventually relax more? Uh, or do you think like, Nico, you will need to exit? Like, what do you think about that?

Dominik: Yeah, I mean, I think honestly, like, do

Dago: you have a plan to actually feel like less stressed or no? Or do you not think about it?

Dominik: Man, like my, my, my plan changes by the, by the day, I guess. Like, it's like a certain MRR goal, but then like I, I hit the MRR goal maybe. And then I realized I feel the exact same that I felt before, you know, then I'm telling myself, but if I hit this MRR goal, I will feel. I feel really better, but then, you know, like I, I tried to ditch this, this kind of mindset, but obviously like, I think for me, like one great, great relief would be to have an exit, but have a big enough exit.

So, you know, I can be relieved actually. So which

Dago: number would that be for you?

Dominik: I don't know. I feel like, so I've been talking about this, like with my friend Jesse the other day of like, I think I'm maybe underestimating a bit the asset that I'm sitting on. Like, I was like, you know, I could see myself like selling it maybe for like, you know, like.

1. 3, 4, 1. 5 million upwards, you know, like that's maybe something that would be enough for me. But then if you think about like, just like how, you know, like fire works in terms of like, how much money do you actually have on a recurring basis if you, um, so basically hire

Dago: just to explain, uh, If I'm getting this correctly, FIRE is when you invest your money basically in index funds or something and it brings you back dividends every year and that's enough or you sell a little bit every year but less than what you make and so you kind of like get 3 percent of something.

And then you, you live off that until you die, basically.

Dominik: Well, yeah, that's the best case idea. Like till you die. It's always like, if you become 120, probably a runway won't work, but I mean, most cases, yeah, that's the idea, right? Like you earn enough with the interest on the money you would deposit in like.

Like an index fund or like any investment, and then that makes enough. So you don't actually have to, so you actually earn an income. And like, I like rule of thumb, I guess now maybe like, um, the numbers are not really correct anymore, but if you have like, I guess like 2 million in like deposited in like an ETF fund that S and P 500, I think it runs around to like two, 4, 000 a month that you would get recurrently for like, you know, years on end.

Okay. Which, I mean, that's kind of like what my friend Jesse was like, kind of saying is like, do you like, do you want to have like two to 4k a month in like, you know, like security, or do you want to have like 10k a month in security? Right. Which you would be like by 5 million, 10 million or upwards that kind of thing.

Um, what is my goal? Honestly, I think like I've seen, um, yesterday someone even asking how much And cash, do you like really want to have like, as your goal? And I think the average that I calculated was like around two to 3 million. And I think I sit in the right, same boat, like 5 million upwards would obviously be even much, much better.

But like, the thing is my, I feel like my first exit, I don't have to like, you know, reach that goal already. Like I. I feel like I have so many opportunities still. I want to try out, you know, other things. And I'm also like, not really like scared that I won't be able to make money after I exit. If that makes sense.

Yeah. You know, that's why

Dago: I think it is real with that. Yeah. Because like, I'm thinking, It's steps, right? Like you can, like, for example, now, for example, let's say I don't make it to be fully sustainable with my info products and sponsorship by October and I take a job again, but then I will have made some success.

So maybe I will still make like two or three K passively from my stuff on top of a job. And that's like something that accumulates and then I can try again and add. So like, for example, if you were tired of help kit, you could sell it now, turn it into like, I don't know, three K a month. And, or maybe just turn it into two K a month and use some of the money to create something else, like if you want it or whatever.

And you just keep like building up, you know, on top of everything. I feel like this fire thing, it was initially for people who hate their life as a software engineer. And so the goal is like, I feel like the idea is like you grind and have a shit life for 10 years and then you can rest. But that's, I don't feel like that's our lives.

I feel like our lives about creating, having like some sort of purpose and making money with it. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like we will always try to be making money, you know, like we said earlier with side projects or stuff until we're like too old to like work, but like, until we're like at least 70, we'll be grinding, not grinding, but at least hustling a bit.

And so I feel like it's a weird thing to be like, I can only sell when like, I'm, it is going to make me five when it's like 5 million and it's going to make me like 10 K a month. Cause like. You're going to have so many ways to make money in the next couple of years because you're going to keep creating.

So, you know,

Dominik: I really hundred, 10 percent like agree with this. Um, I do think like that you. Like people like us will always want to make money. Like we want to build creative stuff, but, you know, also, you know, have them like generate some income. I mean, eventually if I would have enough money, like that, I don't really have to really, really think about at the moment about like, you know, survival stuff, I would like to do a bit more philanthropic stuff, like kinda every VC.

Statement ever, but like, that's what I also kind of would like to do. I would like, love to like create some software for like, you know, people that maybe need it, but nobody cares about them because there's no money, you know, that kind of stuff. So I would love to do that. Um, now it just doesn't make a lot of sense for me, unfortunately, because I'm, you know, what we talked about, like the whole, um, you know, like pyramid of like needs, you know, like I want to put myself first and then I'm happy to help people, you know, um, in that, in that regard.

And other than that. Yeah, I, I, I, I don't know if I tweeted this, but like, I, um, I have a list of like everything kind of like I did wrong with help kit in a way, like things that I would do better things that like how I would kickstart something if I, if it would be new and a lot of these things are, I'm trying to retroactively like patch into help kit, which works to a certain extent, but if I could start from scratch, like, you know, have like a blank slate and then put all of these things like together, you know.

Dago: Yeah,

Dominik: probably be a completely different story as well. Maybe give me some like much, much bigger advantage to start with. Um, but yeah, I agree.

[01:12:55] Being okay with the worst case scenario
---

Dominik: Like I honestly, like the biggest thing that made me more, um, calm is realizing like, like if shit would hit the fan kind of like with you, like worst case, um, There's a lot of people on the internet that like all love my websites.

They love my design. They keep asking me like, if I can do something, you know, like maybe I like worst case I do that. And then, um, so like this is not there, but to be honest, still still like right now, like I still, even though I know this backup is there, like I still don't feel like I have it. Like, uh, if that makes sense, like I I know, it makes

Dago: sense.

I didn't, I, cause I had this feeling before my burnout, I felt like, yeah, I can take a job. I know. But I was kind of like not wanting to deep down. So I think like, you know, it's not what you want, but once I was forced to kind of like, okay, I have to take a job because like, else I'm not going to be able to do, to survive.

It was so relaxing. I think it was really useful for me to get it, to just have this feeling now of like, I didn't lose my identity. I didn't lose myself, uh, which was what I was scared about because you cling to like this lifestyle, you cling to this and you realize, Oh, and you think, and that's actually motivating to feel like I will never have a job again.

It's motivating to like, you know, kind of like paint the other thing. As like a nightmare, you know, having a job is terrible, you know, bosses are shit and you have meetings all the time and all this shit. Well, the job I had, we had almost no meetings. I had like one 30 minutes meeting a week. Uh, I was completely remote.

I was doing everything the fuck I wanted and that was awesome, you know, and I was basically reporting to myself and that was cool, you know, yeah, I think so. I understand though. Cause like, it's kind of like, I think, uh, a necessary psychological process. To think to, to, to not want to consider the alternatives because then it's like, Oh, I, cause then it feels like, Oh, I could give up.

I could quit. And, and, and my life will still be good. I, you could literally stop, help kit and not put you, put yourself through all this pain and it will still be okay. That's kind of like scary to have that thought because then you might be tempted to give up. And that is scary. You know what I mean?

Exactly

Dominik: that.

[01:15:08] Starting to enjoy life again after reaching 8K MRR
---

Dominik: And I do have to say one more thing. Um, which I found like, which I feel like was a really important milestone, like in my entrepreneurial life. And that was the fact that when I reached. Maybe it was like eight KMR, like we've had kids. Um, it was like, there was like this point where I, you know, like how much do I need per month to live actually?

And then I was like extrapolating it, how much I could technically worst case survive in Asia for a year, you know, that kind of stuff. Once I realized this, like that I'm pretty comfortable in that spot, I did. There was a bit of a switch in terms of like, I did like for maybe a few months, I did become a bit slower.

Like I really like try to get a bit like my, my working hours down, like the worst case that not worst case, but the problem I always had like two years Building, you know, indie hacking, I got like, so socially, um, what's the word? Isolated, you know, like I was like almost never going out. I was like meeting friends and then they were asking, Oh, you want to meet another time?

And I was like, yeah, but then, you know, I, I, I canceled a meeting or didn't go. And, you know, and then at one point, like literally I had one person tell me like, Matt, like this like magic work. I like, he's like, man, you're not living in the moment. And I was like, well, whatever. And then. A few months later, someone else was like, man, like you always keep talking about what you are going to do.

Like I say, Oh, I'm stoked about like in two weeks, I'm going to be this doing. And like, and then I'm going to be working on this. And then people were like, bro, like, can you like enjoy the day? Like we are here, maybe we were like climbing. Like, can you enjoy like the fact you climbing on this like tree, whatever, not tree, like bouldering, whatever.

Um, and when I hit eight K for like, that was, I don't know what the number. I. Took a bit of like a step back and I, I, I gave myself the permission to do more things. Sometimes like maybe I didn't work for a day or sometimes I worked like two hours a day for like four days, like straight and like only did support tickets, which back then I couldn't even think about, like, I always, like, I always do support tickets.

That's like what help kit is like known for customers love it. And like, I can't do it, like I can't leave the product without doing support. But like, other than that, you know, I took myself down and this, like, I think if someone is in the same position. That really helped me because I think I would have really, really burned out if I wouldn't have done this.

And now also in the relationship that I'm in for like the past eight months, I'm realizing sometimes I'm taking, you know, a bit tight, like a little of the, like the energy out maybe, which obviously is like for the business, like maybe an inch less good, but then for me, like I, I feel more refreshed. And so that's a really important thing as well that you cannot neglect.

Dago: Yeah, if you can have, yeah, that's a good point. Like if you can be with someone that's going to make you feel a bit more relaxed and kind of like bring you back into the moment, because you know, you have to be present with her if you want to have a good relationship.

Dominik: Yeah. I mean, for sure, man, I've been in like casual things where like, I couldn't, like, we were sitting together at the dinner table, but I couldn't even think about her.

Like I was just like, in my mind, like, did I get a support ticket or did like, what do I do tomorrow in marketing? Like horrible. Yeah. You don't want to be there. But that's also why sometimes when you are in that position, maybe you should be dating, you know, like keep the dating side away. Maybe

Dago: that's not the right person and like nothing going on like, but like, yeah.

[01:18:30] Finding balance
---

Dominik: There's this whole, like, you know, this James Clew thing. Like he came up with this idea of like the Fort Bernard method. I don't know if you heard about it. No. Which is like, he has this like metaphor of like, you know, life has like. You have like four burners, right? Kitchen burners, like the stove. And it's just out of these four burners.

And one is for family. One is for health, like physical health. The other one is for friends. And then the other one is for like relationships. And the idea is like his, his, um, his assumption is like, Hey, look, you have four burners. Ideally you want all of them to burn at the same amount, like strongly, all of them four, right?

But it's not possible, you don't have enough gas to like leave all these four burning. So you need to technically have a way to find out how can you, you know, how can you deal with that fact? And there's a few methodologies that he proposes in terms of, you know, do you keep all four at a lower pace? So you're kind of doing everything a bit.

That's horrible. Like, you don't doing anything great. So everything suffers. Do you only keep one burning? And then focus a hundred percent on that. And then like, you know, he goes through these ideas and then one of the best approaches that I have seen. And once I read it, it really resonated with me was the idea of having seasons.

And the idea is that maybe you have like, you try to keep two burners alive. You know, you, you focus on. Maybe, um, health and business. Let's say these two things, right? Kind of like most indie hackers are in this position, I guess. Like, so you focus on these two things and the rest, you know, you need to neglect them a bit, but then you have seasons.

Maybe it takes you like a year or let's say, hopefully less, a few months. And then all of a sudden you realize, Oh, you know, the business is taking off. Maybe I keep a bit more of the health and I start dating again, you know? And then you try to balance these things a little bit. And that's. That resonated the most with me, the seasons approach.

Um, at least that's how I, that feels like exactly how I'm living my life now. Um, and it's a great analogy, I think to, to kind of like what it did for me. is it gave me the permission to know that there are things that I'm neglecting and it's just natural that they are neglected. They, they will be a bit neglected, you know?

Cause otherwise you think, Oh my God, I need to do all of these things at the same time. And it will make it absolutely miserable.

Dago: Yeah. I feel like, and I agree, like just trying to do a little bit of everything. It's never satisfying. It's like, it's, it's better when you can go all in on something. And then cycle through.

Yeah, I would definitely do that too. Cause then I feel so when like, let's say you spend like a lot, like six months or one year on your business, then after that, usually it will be able to kind of like, you, you, you can put it in like maintenance mode.

Yeah. If

I can go back to the stove analogy, let's say you have a pan and you heat it for like some time.

Eventually, even if you lower the heat, it's going to stay hotter for a while. It's like the, the metal or the thing keeps the heat, you know, and then you have, so you can use the momentum to put the fire on other, you know, stoves, on other burners, and then, you know, then come back when the other thing got cold or something, you know, so that can be a way.

Awesome, man. I like

Dominik: that.

[01:21:42] Where to follow Dominik
---

Um, awesome, man. So like, Can you tell us a bit more about what you do, like where people can find you and shit?

Dominik: Yeah, sure. Um, so I'm active on Twitter, probably like the most, like, most thing that I spend the most time on at SuperDominic. Um, I work most of the time on this like no code tool that turns Notion into like a professional help center called Help Kit.

That's what I've been working on for the past few years. Um, also doing some other side projects, something related to like film photography, um, I also launched like a little guide that helps people to find out, um, how they can like. Make the life a little bit easier, moving to different like nomad cities.

I launched a guide for Bangkok, which has spent a lot of time. And so I know a bit of stuff about it, but yeah, mainly working, working on help kit. That's what my daily bread is.

Dago: Awesome, man. That was so cool to have you on, you know, after all this time knowing each other. So yeah, man, I wish you the best and let's follow you on Twitter and see what you're up to.

Dominik: Yeah, man. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

Dago: Thanks. Cheers.