This Indie Life

Dago: 00:00

Hey, guys. This is the first episode of This Indie Life new version. The 1st year of This Indie Life, I was with James and we were sharing our indie journey. And eventually, we noticed that one of the content that resonated the most with you guys is when we talked about the deep stuff. The most successful episode we had is when I talked about how I burnt out with my startup and then how it led me to divorce my wife.

Dago: 00:30

And after talking with other founders, I noticed a lot of us just need this type of content. Like, we're so fucking tired of just seeing, oh, yeah. I just made $10,000 this month. Oh yeah, I'm so successful. Everybody only talks about success.

Dago: 00:47

And the problem is it feels kind of depressing because like when you open social media and only see success, at least for me, I start to feel like I feel you real fast. So that's why I decided that now this podcast will be focusing on the dark side of entrepreneurship. We're gonna talk about the difficult bits that are not often shared on social media. And so for that, I've started lining up guests from the community to talk about what they usually don't talk about. And for this first time with my very first guest, I'm gonna be with Nico Janan.

Dago: 01:24

Nico started going indie about 7 years ago. And since then, he went through a lot of ups and downs. A couple years ago, he found his first major success with a SaaS and in 3 months he made 20 k from it. Then he exited and sold it for 60 k. So he basically made 80 k in 3 months.

Dago: 01:45

But the interesting bit is that despite this success, and he now has another app that makes 4 k a month, he is still full of anxiety. He has trouble sleeping. He is struggling to maintain his relationship with his girlfriend and he lost his physical fitness because he cannot work out because he spent so long working on his startup. So I thought that was a very interesting person to have as a guest because it shows us that even though this guy has like lots of followers, looks successful like many of us on social media, well, behind the scenes, it's not the easiest. It's not smooth sailings And, you know, he is like everyone else, full of doubt and anxiety about all this.

Dago: 02:34

I'm gonna play the recording now, But before that, I just wanted to give you a heads up is that it's my very first time, like, ever interviewing someone. So the first 10 or 20 minutes aren't gonna be like the most smooth. You know, I'm not really sure where we're going. I have trouble bringing up the questions I wanted to talk about. But eventually, we found a good rhythm.

Dago: 02:56

Eventually, I kind of like found, like, my pace as an interviewer, and we started having a better connection with Nico. And then we really talk about the deep stuff. So I think you're gonna really appreciate it. I really hope you do. Please leave your comments in the under the tweets or send them to me on my Twitter account.

Dago: 03:16

Also, in this episode, we're going to have our first sponsor. And I didn't want to do it like the usual way, where I just talk about the bullet points that some company gave me or anything. And I try to bring it up naturally in the conversation. So during the recording, at some point, I will mention that I talk about a sponsor, but I really try to make it as authentic and genuine as I can. So I hope you can actually listen to it and then let me know, did it feel weird?

Dago: 03:44

Did it feel off? Because I really wanna make something that is both valuable for the sponsor that paid for the spot, but also for you guys that you don't wanna skip it and you actually find the story that I told interesting. We are building this podcast in public, and my goal is to make a podcast where we can really be harnessed with each other, realize that we're all in this together. Nobody's, like, above everyone else, like having all figured it out. We're all struggling, all in doubt, all having ups and downs.

Dago: 04:16

And I want us to have this podcast as a way to every week talk about this kind of stuff. And I hope you enjoy it. So this is the first time doing an interview on this podcast, man. Like like we've spent the past 5 minutes trying to fix your AC because it was like sound, because, like, there's like a background noise. But I thought, you know, let's keep it because, like, it's really the indie life.

Dago: 04:43

Like, it's about being a nomad sometimes. So, like, can you tell us a bit more, like, where are you? Like, what's happening?

Nico: 04:51

Yeah. So right now, I'm in, Bangkok. So, I need to have AC. Otherwise, I will be, sweating, like, if I just, worked out. So yeah.

Nico: 05:00

Yeah. It's, one of the downside of living in, Southeast Asia is that, it gets very hot.

Dago: 05:06

I'm just gonna jump straight into it. Yeah.

Nico: 05:08

Don't worry.

Dago: 05:09

Can you tell us a bit more, like, you know, just very quickly, what are you? Like, who are you? And like, what are you doing?

Nico: 05:17

Yeah. That's always a tough one. I'm like, I'm Nico. I make apps.

Dago: 05:21

That's perfect. Yeah. You're Nico. You make apps. And one day you did one about, you know, logo design, and you were kind enough to send me because my startup used to do, like, my past startup was doing logos.

Dago: 05:32

And you were kind enough to send me a DM and be like, hey, I'm gonna do logo. I hope, like, it's okay with you or something. So do you remember that?

Nico: 05:42

Yeah. Actually, that's funny because, so when I was doing this project, I so I wrote everything in real time and I wrote in the blog post, it's like, man, I really hope that, Daggo won't be mad at me. Like, it's actually written in the blog post.

Dago: 06:00

You know, that's very interesting. Like, because well, first of all, I think this could have been a good strategy for you to make me mad. Like, it could have been a good way to I don't know. Like, I probably, like, would have, like, would have figured out that that was a strategy, so I wouldn't have done anything. But, like, making someone mad is like a legit strategy to get engagement, so that could have worked.

Dago: 06:22

But, yeah. I know the other thing about competition, like, very interesting is, like, you made way more money, in terms of, like, how quick you made money than we did. How much did you make? Like, how how

Nico: 06:35

So with just the app itself, I think it was 20,000 in 3 months. Yeah. Yeah. And then after I I sold it, so then it was a lot, but not directly, like, from the actual Yeah. Logo.

Dago: 06:47

You sold it, like, for, like, 60. 60 k or something?

Nico: 06:50

65. Yeah.

Dago: 06:50

So, like, that's 85 in 3 months. And, like, I think I think we didn't make 85 in 5 years. You know? So that's like a fucking lesson, man. The mistake we did is we went after a market that is like doesn't have much money.

Dago: 07:03

And, like, we went at it with, like, highest quality, like every logo is designed by hand. We thought, oh, yeah, we're gonna kill the market with this. But that was just like completely, like, not what people expected. So, like, very few people really appreciated the quality. And so it's it's it's like it was kind of, like, useless, You know?

Dago: 07:22

And you came in. If I remember correctly, you used, like, AI and, like, some of the image generator AI tools at the time. Like, basically create, like, dozens of logos instantly, and people just pay. And you don't even promise the results. You're just like, yeah, you pay and you get to generate the results.

Dago: 07:38

And, hey. And, like and that's what people wanted, you know, at that price point and in this pocket. So that's, like, such a lesson, man. Like, you spent basically 20 times less than us, and you made about the same money. And so, like like, you know?

Dago: 07:54

So now you're doing TalkNotes. And so how how did you came about doing that?

Nico: 07:59

I had the idea a bit before because I wanted to make, like, I don't know. I wanted to write, like, a post on Google Docs, and they had, like, a transcriber. So I was just, like, testing it, and it was really, like, really bad. So I was like, okay. I guess I can probably do something like that.

Nico: 08:14

I'm not the only one who is too lazy to write. So I know you can that there are some apps that use Whisper to make transcript and stuff like that. I was like, okay, I'm just going to to make something. You record yourself, and it give you, like, a a transcript or, like, a summarized version, stuff like that. And I think I did 3 for this one, I think, 1 week.

Nico: 08:33

Yeah. I I launched the app in 1 week, and then I I launched on, Twitter, Product Hunt, etcetera, etcetera.

Dago: 08:39

Mhmm. It's like your most successful app now, I think? Yeah.

Nico: 08:43

Yeah. Yeah.

Dago: 08:44

Okay. And you launched it in 1 week. Well, that's impressive. Okay.

Nico: 08:47

Yeah.

Dago: 08:48

And do you have to do a lot of work since then to kind of, like, improve it? Or, like, was, like, the basic version already pretty good enough?

Nico: 08:55

I mean, that's pretty much my full time I'm full time on it since, pretty much since I launched. Like, sometimes I don't work for, you know, 2 weeks, 3 weeks or something. And it's still fine. But, whenever there's things to do, it's, like, mainly most of the day I'm thinking, okay. How can I grow that?

Nico: 09:14

So, yeah, there were lots of work. I'm pretty much working nonstop. Do you

Dago: 09:18

have a lot of, like, support and shit to do? Yeah. Like Like the board and stuff, like, support accounting and all that?

Nico: 09:28

So accounting, I don't do that. Like, technically, LLC in the US, you don't really need accounting. So, I don't bother with that. But yes. Support.

Nico: 09:39

Oh, man. I fucking hate that. It's just way for me to hate a day is to open my Gmail account, see tons of emails, which I think is the case right now. So I don't I don't I don't open the mailbox. It's I don't have support if I don't see the image, you know?

Dago: 09:53

Like, how are people reacting if you don't respond to the emails? That doesn't sound good.

Nico: 09:58

I mean, I do it eventually. It's just like when I have to focus on some stuff, I cannot do multiple things. So

Dago: 10:04

Yeah. You do one thing with support. Maybe also, like, you do, like, a couple hours. Like, you you schedule it, like, time for support. Okay.

Dago: 10:10

Cool.

Nico: 10:11

Yeah. Yeah.

Dago: 10:12

So, you know, I really want us to get into, like, the deep like, the darkest things now. I wanna talk about the fact that you lost sleep. I wanna talk about your love life. I wanna talk about your fitness that you kind of lost since working on start up, like, all these things you told me about. I feel like that's really the interesting stuff.

Dago: 10:30

But before that, I'm making an experiment is that for the first time we're taking sponsors. And I didn't wanna do like a normal thing where, like, you have sponsors and you just say the bullet points of whatever the guy wants you to say. And I was waiting for a moment in the conversation where it would make sense to talk about this sponsor, you know, but I with my own words. So Yeah. It's true.

Dago: 10:56

At some point, you said that you created an LLC, and this is not staged by the way, because like it's gonna sound so perfect. But like, you created an LLC in the US. How did you do that?

Nico: 11:08

I just went on an agent online. Creating the LLC was pretty simple, but then I had to do, like, calls and shit like that for the units, some numbers, like, to open a bank account. So it was a bit Yeah.

Dago: 11:19

Yeah.

Nico: 11:20

A bit annoying.

Dago: 11:20

Why did you do that though? Because, like, I'm curious, like, because, like, you're a French citizen. Now you live

Nico: 11:25

Mhmm.

Dago: 11:26

In Southeast Asia. What how and why did you do that?

Nico: 11:31

I think the this is the same reason as every, you know, French people live France and open a company abroad. Yeah. Taxes and administration. It's just a nightmare there. I I don't want to deal with that.

Nico: 11:46

So if you are in all the maximum brackets, you can be taxed up until, like, 65%. Like, from what your company make to your own pocket personally, including all the taxes, then you lose you can lose up to like 65,000 with VAT and all of this stuff. Absolutely.

Dago: 12:07

You know, that's interesting you say that because I think that's one of the reasons I burnt out last time is that, you know, you go on X on like social media and you see all these people, yeah, I made like, you know, 5 k this month. And like but like when when when I was making 5 k and I was with my wife, so, like, there was 2 of us, it's not enough to do anything. You we needed to make basically 10 k to just, like, survive. You know, like, especially when you're indie, like, small projects that are not gonna bring a lot of money. I mean, that's like a game changer.

Dago: 12:36

I live in France. I'm happy, like, with the system. I think, like, there's, like, downsides, upsides, you know, depending on, like, where you go, so I'm fine with it. But, like, I I get you. Like, like, it's so much easier, like, in a way.

Dago: 12:49

Like, you're just, like, removing a huge, you know, hurdle. And so the sponsor of this week is a friend of mine, and he created something called Better Legal, which does exactly basically what you did. When you want to open, like, a company in the US, like, depending on the state that you are in, like, the forms are different. Like, everything is different per state. And so what he does is, like, you can just, like, fill his thing online and you can open in any state.

Dago: 13:16

You know, it doesn't matter. He didn't take care of it for you. It was, like, very and quite inexpensive. So I think if I was doing that, it would be a no brainer to use his service, you know? And especially since I know him and I know how, like, if there's a problem, I know he's gonna take care of it.

Dago: 13:30

Like, I know he's very, you know, solid. So but I the story of his company, man, is, like, he created that years ago with a cofounder, and I need to invite him to talk about this actually. But, like and, like, the cofounder, I think, basically stopped working after a couple months or, like, 1 year. Oh, gosh. And he has, like, 50% of, like, the huge, like like, real cofounder.

Dago: 13:51

And and, like, but, like, the way they had done the terms, there's nothing he can do about it. He's been basically growing and hustling for this company for years, but, like, he only has half of it, and he's alone on it.

Nico: 14:02

Oh, damn.

Dago: 14:03

That is so fucking brutal. Like, man, that is the dark side of the indie journey. So, you know, so just to end this segment, like, yeah, go check out his website, betterligo.com. You can also find him on Twitter. I'm gonna find his Zendal real quick.

Dago: 14:18

Yeah. I think I heard

Nico: 14:20

I saw him on Twitter differently. Because the name is very familiar.

Dago: 14:23

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, his name is Chad. What kind of name is that?

Dago: 14:27

Like,

Nico: 14:27

such as, you

Dago: 14:28

know, like, it's like a meme name. So, yeah, it's Chad Sacanchik, so c s acorn on Twitter. Again, awesome dude. Yeah. You know, he brought his company to, like, 1,000,000 in revenue, but, like, he's basically alone with a cofounder who's not doing anything.

Dago: 14:44

So, you know, congrats to you, man. And, yeah, that was my first try of, like, talking about a sponsor. Seems a bit weird, you know, but I think it's genuine. We'll see. I will actually send this to Chad to see if he likes it or not.

Nico: 15:00

Yeah. No. It's like it's a good sponsorship, like, because, I think lots of Indies are, you know, not cannot really open a company in their country because to get international payment and stuff. So if you open a company in the US, you can have the US Stripe account and just make everything easier. So it's just, it matches

Dago: 15:18

Oh, yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. For the US Stripe account. Yeah.

Dago: 15:22

Yeah. So what you mean is, like, if you're a digital nomad and you're going to live in like countries where like it's difficult to get a Stripe account, like Southeast Asia, then opening a company in the US way better.

Nico: 15:35

I think the two options are either Singapore or US, but Singapore is like, create like really expensive. It's good when you really scale and stuff, but, iOS is really good when you start. I think most people do that, when they're starting out. So that's on point, I think. Perfect audience.

Dago: 15:52

Awesome. Well, thanks, Chad, for sponsoring. If you guys want to do that to open a company in the US because you're nomading, go to betterlegal.com. It's solid. So yeah.

Dago: 16:05

Now let's talk about the interesting stuff. Like, what's what's on top of your mind when I talk about, some shit that you went through since you went in the

Nico: 16:16

I think the biggest like the hardest thing is lack of like, certitude. You don't know what's going to happen in, you know, 1 month, 6 months, 1 year, 5 years.

Dago: 16:28

Even tomorrow, like, maybe maybe like OpenAI does something and makes your product absolute tomorrow. Like it's been so quick.

Nico: 16:36

Yeah. Especially, man, especially, like, when you do, like, AI stuff, it's just it's fucking insane. It's just I think Yeah.

Dago: 16:44

The stress will be crazy. Yeah.

Nico: 16:47

Every everyone who make AI apps and stuff like that, I think feels the same. It's just you feel so much of, like, FOMO that you cannot like oh, okay. It's okay. I take some time, you know, it's nothing is going to change because it's not true. Like, in 1 month, maybe you have

Dago: 17:08

Oh, you yeah.

Nico: 17:09

As you said, OpenAI release your app. Like, everyone who is doing, copywriting apps, everyone who is doing chatbot and stuff like that, you get wiped out in like, one day with 1 Yeah. Like,

Dago: 17:22

I keep thinking about Stack Overflow, man. I keep thinking about them. Because, like, this was the go to place for everyone for more than 10 years. Out of nowhere, at first it was GitHub Copilot and then it was chatgpt that really fucked them. And they're just like falling down and it's just just like dying, like, quickly.

Dago: 17:45

It's just like some people get cancer and then and out of nowhere, and then, you know, you die quickly. Like, it's terrible. And it's like out of nowhere. They definitely had product market fit. They definitely had, like, everything.

Dago: 17:57

And boom, you know, fuck you. You know, it's over. Yeah.

Nico: 18:01

It's crazy. I'm I'm in the Google Trends. I'm like, it's growing growing since, you know, 2004 and then, like, 2022. Poor. Man, that's crazy.

Dago: 18:13

And it's over. Like, it's fucking over.

Nico: 18:15

Nothing.

Dago: 18:15

Like, how does it impact you, man? Like this uncertainty?

Nico: 18:19

I I just cannot stop. I I cannot take breaks. Like, I have a really hard time taking breaks.

Dago: 18:26

Okay.

Nico: 18:27

I managed to do it when my girlfriend was here. I still worked, but I was a bit more taking time off and stuff. But man, it's so fucking hard. The problem in general is not like lack of certainty. It's more like, like the time is passing, you know?

Nico: 18:44

I started entrepreneurship 7 years ago. Okay. And I started, I was, you know, I was a freak. I was arrogant. I was like, yeah, I'm smarter.

Nico: 18:52

I'm going to make it in a year or 2 or something.

Dago: 18:54

Yeah. Same here.

Nico: 18:55

It's 7 years. It's been 7 fucking years. Everyone think, oh yeah, I'm smarter. I'm smarter than those guys and stuff.

Dago: 19:02

That's why we leave the job. That's why we take the risk because we've seen all the success stories and we think I'm gonna be more than happy.

Nico: 19:09

Yeah. And that's the thing, like, you get delusional very quickly, you get humbled on. And so for me, it's been 7 years And I don't want to spend my whole life doing that. It's like I want to build something nice, then I want to cash out, make a big exit, and then be, like, retired, sort of. Like, retired, not as I'm not doing anything, but as I don't have

Dago: 19:32

Yeah.

Nico: 19:32

This thing, you know?

Dago: 19:34

How old are you now?

Nico: 19:36

26.

Dago: 19:37

20 26? Yeah. Okay. Wow. You're fucking young.

Dago: 19:41

Cool. And so you plan to retire like when?

Nico: 19:45

So ideally, I would like to have like at least 1,000,000 in the bank by 30. That was always my my goal. I want to be like a millionaire by 30. I think I would I would be so fucking depressed if I cannot reach that. And then in high school, I was telling people if I'm not millionaire by 30, I will jump off a building or something.

Nico: 20:03

Like, it's it's just Oh, wow. Like, I was already, like, you know, wanting that. But, yeah, it's like, I'm really obsessed by that, by being able to, like, get free sort of as soon as possible.

Dago: 20:15

1,000,000 is like freedom, and you don't have to to play the game anymore.

Nico: 20:19

And you

Dago: 20:19

can do whatever you want. Is that it?

Nico: 20:21

So I think 1,000,000 is a good start, but the end game is 5,000,000. Because because 5,000,000, I think, basically if you, you know, invest a little bit or something, if you get 3 percent, return on investment per year, that's 10,000 per month after taxes.

Dago: 20:37

Which is pretty healthy. 50% is very conservative. So it's safe. Yeah. Yeah.

Dago: 20:41

Okay.

Nico: 20:41

Yeah. Yeah. So you can live anywhere. You can live very good. And it means that you don't have to work anymore for money.

Nico: 20:48

You can do whatever the fuck you want.

Dago: 20:50

I think this is the quest for freedom that kind of like drove me to exhaustion last time. I was always running away from a job, because that was kind of like because I never had a job for a long time in my life. And I was always running away from it. You know? There's this ticker I made, you know, imagine having a boss again, like this Post it note I had made, you know, that I sold Yeah.

Dago: 21:10

Merchand stuff. I will start selling merch again because I need to make money, man. When I had this job though, it made me realize it felt good for a while to not run away.

Nico: 21:20

I think peaceful. Right? You don't have the

Dago: 21:23

fire behind you. Very well for this time. Yeah.

Nico: 21:25

Yeah. I had something similar. So when I started to to go, like, so before I was doing, you know, freelancing, I had, like, clients. I was managing ads for them and stuff. It was online e commerce.

Nico: 21:37

So at the end of COVID, people went back in physical stores. So the sales went down and stuff, lots of things going on. And the guy was like, okay, we we're going to I'm going to work with someone else who is cheaper. It's just business. You know?

Nico: 21:48

Yeah. He found someone who do it cheaper and stuff. On the same week, I lost, like, you know, my egg. Like, my ex my ex dumped me. The place I was leaving, kicked me out because they were, like, stopping, long term rental and stuff like that.

Dago: 22:02

Okay.

Nico: 22:02

And I was like, okay. For that, I'm just going to start from scratch. So I'm going to learn to code, and worst case, I will take a job as developer. I accepted that. I I didn't have to do it, but I was like, no matter what happens, I will need 1 year to, you know, get my sheet together again at the minimum to start making at least some revenue.

Nico: 22:22

And I accepted that for 1 year, it will be learning. So for a short period of time, because it stopped when I started shipping apps, but for a short period of time, I was like, you know, peaceful. I still worked a lot, like taking my course.

Dago: 22:38

I was Interesting.

Nico: 22:39

Yeah. I was, I was really following the course, but I was like, hey, it's fine. I have 1 year savings. So this year I'm going to learn and stuff like that. And I I slept way better.

Nico: 22:51

Same as you. It's like I felt peaceful.

Dago: 22:53

Weirdly now, you kind of like made it. You start to make money with your own business. So you're kind of like free.

Nico: 22:59

The thing is I did lots of mistake with e commerce and that's, you know, I made like tons of sales, but very little profit. And then I become like a lazy sort of, stopped working on the business and stuff, and the business went down. And I basically, like, I never got successful in e commerce because of that. I got some success, and then I would relax. Oh, it's all good.

Nico: 23:21

I make money. Feels good about yourself and stuff. And I don't want to let that happen again.

Dago: 23:26

So Yeah. I'm starting to get some success. Okay.

Nico: 23:29

And I'm like, this is where I need to push hard now.

Dago: 23:33

You know, I feel like passive income is such a fucking mess, man. Like, oh, like, yeah, we're gonna try passive income. And, like, it's so active. Like, it's the opposite. It's active income.

Dago: 23:43

Yeah.

Nico: 23:43

I mean

Dago: 23:43

Like, it it takes so much work to make money without working. You know what I mean? Like, it's weird.

Nico: 23:49

Yeah. Yeah. It's I think like anything that is not money you earn from your own already existing money is not passive income. There is no such thing. It's like Yeah.

Nico: 24:00

Even if you earn passive income, you earn it by pretty much lending your money to other people. There is there is no such thing. And especially not with a company. That's the least passive income you can think of. When you have a company, you can never stop because one change in the environment can fuck you up and make you out of business.

Nico: 24:19

So that's actually with Talk Nodes. I really feel that because, like, maybe Apple will improve the voice memo app to make talk notes, you know.

Dago: 24:28

I'm actually waiting for that. So yeah. I get you. I get you.

Nico: 24:31

So it's like, and now it's starting to take off. I just reached 4,000 monthly recurring revenue, like yesterday.

Dago: 24:39

Awesome. Oh, wow. Congrats. Yeah.

Nico: 24:41

And I'm like, man, like, cause I want to push it to at least 5,000 or 10, like between 5,010,000. That's my goal for

Dago: 24:47

And then maybe sell it.

Nico: 24:48

In Bangkok. Yeah. And yeah. Then sell it. But that's the thing.

Nico: 24:52

Like, it make revenue and stuff like that. So I can hire support to delegate. But how long will it last? You know? I don't think I would be able to to rest until I I sold it.

Nico: 25:02

So it's And, you

Dago: 25:03

know, it's funny. I was, like, way too romantic about my company. And it's maybe because I was building it to my wife. So it was kind of like our baby, like, kind of like our little project together. I mean, our big project together.

Dago: 25:15

And there was this thing of like, I will never sell it. We're just gonna do a business and it's going to be like kind of like a family restaurant or something. That's really how we thought about it. But that led us down a path of like trying to save something that was sinking and, like, that wasn't working. And we just kept, like, thinking, yeah, but, like, it's our family restaurant.

Dago: 25:35

We're gonna figure it out. You know, like very you know, too much emotion and attachment to it, basically. You know, and I think now, at least if you wanna stay indie, you need to plan an exit. Let's say like TalkNotes takes off, like really, like and you make like 100 k a month or something. Well, what's gonna happen is it's gonna attract way many way more competitors.

Dago: 26:02

You're gonna be copied by, like, big players who's gonna destroy you or, like, try to. And, like, if you wanna stay indie and if you wanna still enjoy life and you don't wanna hire 10 people and you don't wanna have to do all this shit, then you're fucked. Because, like, you're not gonna be able to fight, you know? Maybe there's, like, an exception, like Peter Lovells, who's managed, you know, but, like, that's like an exception. Like, and it depends on the market and shit, and some products can do that maybe, but that's, like, very, very uncommon.

Dago: 26:29

Most of the time what's gonna happen is like, if you're just on your own, I mean, you either die or you exit.

Nico: 26:37

It's yeah. I think there is a huge commoditization effect. Some products can easily become, commodity. Because you said so, Peter Lovels. So he has Nomad List.

Nico: 26:49

But the thing is Nomad List, the more the product grow, the more the mold grows because it's a community. Yeah. So I think, also, community products, it's very hard to commoditize it because it's like the product is a community. And it's like Yeah. Snowball.

Nico: 27:06

So there are some products that are protected from that, I would say. I think, for example, your your Twitter course, it's it will not become a commodity because in the you know, you are the reference on Indi Maker Twitter. No one can copy you. And same for me with ads. I launched a course for ads, and I know that no one can copy me because I have 7 years of experience.

Nico: 27:30

There are some products that can be made very hard to replicate. But when you do a typical problem solving app, then, yeah, you're also highly subject to commoditization. I would say it's not necessarily if you want to go in the you have to plan an exit. But if you want freedom, through freedom, you have to plan an exit. The only way is just to create something valuable enough so you can sell it for a huge amount

Dago: 27:54

of cash. Yeah. So many founders would just want freedom, basically. That's what we're after. It's not money.

Dago: 27:58

It's freedom. You know? And it's like Yeah. And it's Kevin O'Leary, you know, the guy from Shark Tank, like the guy like the very ruthless business guy. And he says, entrepreneurs who do it for money, they give up very quickly.

Dago: 28:13

But if you do it for freedom, you're always gonna keep fighting. Because if you just want money, you're just going to get a nice salary. You're going to get a nice job. You can get like very highly paid engineering job. First of all, if you're a dev and you want to make real money, I think within 5 years, if you plan your steps right, you work for like big US companies, you can get to like 200 k plus, you know, in a in a manner

Nico: 28:36

of years. Just do weapon manufacturing or some shit like that and Yeah. You just want money.

Dago: 28:41

Yeah. Yeah. I I like the way you think. I like how, like, you you think outside the box. Yeah.

Dago: 28:46

You can just, like, you know, kill people. No. I'm just kidding, but, like, you know what I mean? It's, like, very, that's like, you know, housing mentality. But yeah, man.

Dago: 28:55

I remember he also told me about how you kind of like lost your fitness, you know, by, you know, chasing this freedom and being always like kind of like because like, I've seen pics of you. You seem like you're pretty built. So what happened with that?

Nico: 29:08

Normally I'm a really like super skinny guy. You know, at some point I think, I got dumped by a girl and I don't know why, but I was like, oh, if I if I get more fit, you know, I will not get dumped again. And so I started going to the gym Like, 2 years ago, I really started to get big. I had, like, decent cardio. Back then, I was doing, you know, bike every day when I was back in France.

Nico: 29:30

And I went to the gym a little bit. But and recently, big buddy, we had like a paintball with, indie founders.

Dago: 29:41

Okay.

Nico: 29:41

Man, I swear I played 30 seconds. I ran for 30 seconds. I thought I was going to make a hurt attack. I went in, like, in a bush. I stayed the whole game there.

Nico: 29:50

And at the end people were like, oh, the I went when I was okay. I have my breath now. The game was over. And people everyone was already out. Because my cardio has been so bad.

Nico: 30:00

So you

Dago: 30:01

So you So you

Nico: 30:01

So you So what happened? So bad. Yeah. The thing is when I started working, like I think it was September of last year. So this is when I lost my like, my clients, okay, like, that's finished.

Nico: 30:11

He said, okay, we're going to continue with 2 months, but after that, like, we changed, blah, blah. I like, I finished my learn to code. So now it's all about making apps and making money. So it's just how fast I can make apps. The thing is going to the gym, it's like a strict routine, like for me, because I hate going to the gym when it's packed.

Nico: 30:29

So after, after 7 am, it's packed. Like I, I just don't go, because then I have to wait. I lose even more time. And the thing is, because of that, I had like a very strict routine. I was, you know, waking up at like, 5:30 or 6 AM or something.

Nico: 30:45

But I was working late when I was coding because there was always something like a bug, a problem, something. So I finished working at like, you know, sometime like 10 or 11 PM. And I just, I then I had to skip

Dago: 31:00

the shift. So I skipped the shift a lot. Yeah. You don't sleep enough. Yeah.

Nico: 31:04

At first I was like, okay, I'm just going to go 3 times a week instead of every day. Yeah. And then I stopped going. And at some point I just didn't go for like 3 months because I had like a food poisoning and I was super weak for a whole month, but then I lost the habit. Basically, last year, almost didn't went.

Nico: 31:21

There were, like, some period I was still trying to go and stuff like that, but yeah. And I think the peak was when I moved to a new place in Bali and there was the only gym around was fully crowded at 6 AM. So I was like, okay, fuck that. I'm not going to go. And because when you do programming, you just stay, you, you sit the whole day.

Nico: 31:40

Started to gain fat. Man, I I had like a like some fat. Like, I was for the first time I was

Dago: 31:46

Which you never had before? Yoga?

Nico: 31:48

Never. Like because

Dago: 31:49

you're skinny and then yoga.

Nico: 31:50

It was so hard to gain weight. Like I was eating like a fucking burger massive Burger King to bulk, you know, And and now not going to the gym plus, you know, not going, like, staying seated and stuff like that. I started to gain weight. I had like a worse cardio, like, as I said, 30 seconds and I was, I was just dead. Like I Yeah.

Nico: 32:14

And even like health in general, I have, like lots of, you know, my back to the block a lot. I have I started to have white hairs. I don't know if we can see them. It's still not very obvious, but my girlfriend was like, you have white hairs. Let me take them out.

Nico: 32:28

And they're like, she took some out and it was like a whole thing, you know, because of the, you know, the stress, lack of sleep. So it's really impacted by my health a lot. And the cardio was like, okay, I need to do something about it. And so I was in, in Bali. I could not go to the gym because it was crowded.

Nico: 32:46

And in Bangkok, all the apartments, the most buildings at least, have a gym indoor. Like, in the Yeah. In the rooftop or something. And you

Dago: 32:54

can go whenever you want and it's close to where you live. So it's perfect.

Nico: 32:58

Yeah. I still go at 6 AM because I like waking up early, but, man, there I just take the elevator. I took 1 hour of gym. There is no one. So that's the main reason why I moved actually.

Nico: 33:08

It's for health.

Dago: 33:09

Wow.

Nico: 33:09

Because I do the tours in Bali. Like, it's yeah. Like, it's amazing. And I get, like, a meal prep. Like, I did food deliveries.

Nico: 33:16

There are some options in Bali, but I tried, like, lots of them. They are not that good. But the one here, you have so many options. It's just it's perfect. So

Dago: 33:24

It's funny. Yeah. Our stories are pretty similar because I was working out a lot. Like, in the 1st 2 years of my startup, I was doing a lot of weightlifting. You know, I was doing the 5 by 5, you know, strong lift kind of thing.

Dago: 33:35

I hate going to the gym also. So but I had enough home. So and since I'm not nomading, I bought basically weights and, you know, plates and everything. So I could do, like, heavy squats and shit. And it takes a lot, you know, to do this kind of thing.

Dago: 33:50

Like, it takes, like, the time for training, but then you have all the food shit because, like, you need to eat well. Yeah. And you need to sleep well. Because, like, if you don't, like, it's useless. You're not going to make progress.

Dago: 34:01

And so eventually I think I stopped after like I think really when I realized I need to work hard to make this work, you know, because at first, you know, that's what you said earlier. Like, we think it's going to be easy. You're going to be rich because you're so intelligent and shit. You're so smart. Then you realize not.

Dago: 34:20

And me after I think 1 year and a half, I realized, okay, shit. You know, I have to give myself 150% to even stand a chance. So I did less and less, you know, working out. And then eventually I completely stopped. And I think for like the last 2 years, I didn't do anything.

Dago: 34:35

And I was just like working, working, working because it's easy after a fact to say, Yeah, you need to have balance in your life. But when you're in it, work is work. Like if you feel like, I'm going to work 70 hours if I can, like in a week, like you fucking do it because you're still going to make progress. And that's how it seems. And I think it's true.

Dago: 34:58

I think it's true that the more you work, you make progress. It's just that the lesson I learned now is that if you need to work this hard for this long, maybe it's the wrong product. You know? If you just want to be sustainable as an indie, like make 5 ks a month, let's say, I don't think you need to overwork. I think it's like a mistake.

Dago: 35:16

Like she does like many other ways to go about it and like you can have this kind of balance and it's more like be able to find a different product, find a different source of revenue. Once you're old enough and you have enough experience and you have skills, obviously, like when you're 18, you should work your ass off to get skills. But like once you're like you, like you have years of experience in the ad business. I had like many experiences too. So like, I feel like eventually you don't need to kill your health, at least if you want to be kind of like, you know, like decent lifestyle and shit.

Nico: 35:48

Honestly, right now, if I were to start you know, a new project again from scratch, like a SaaS or something, I'm pretty sure I could get a couple sales pretty fast. Because I already have the experience and stuff. But the hard part is, like, for beginners, when you start from 0, you like, it's just there is so much you need to learn. Like the quantity of things you need to learn is the same no matter what. You need to learn those thing, you know, copywriting, marketing,

Dago: 36:16

like, shipping, like Yeah.

Nico: 36:17

Bunch of stuff. Yeah. You know, you could just oh, I'm just going to do that as a side, you know. And that's what lots of people do, but it's really slow. Even me now, I I work like crazy.

Nico: 36:28

Like, there are some weeks, lots of weeks I walk more than 100 hours per week. Like, I try a bit less so

Dago: 36:36

count that?

Nico: 36:36

How do

Dago: 36:37

you count that? I don't believe you.

Nico: 36:39

It's so not right now, I think. Yeah. Not right now. But when during the period where I was, you know, not going to the gym and stuff like that, basically, it's I wake up at maybe 7 AM, and I go to bed at 10 PM.

Dago: 36:54

And Okay.

Nico: 36:55

I think that yeah. Around that. Maybe not exactly a 100, but it should be close. Let me check how many

Dago: 37:02

I think my my highest was, like, 72 and that's when I was close to burnout.

Nico: 37:07

If you work 100 hours per week, that's 14, like 14 hours and a half per day. Yeah. That's right. And that's definitely something I did.

Dago: 37:15

Wow. So yeah. Every day. Because I I could do that 2 days in a row, but then I was too exhausted.

Nico: 37:20

No. For the whole week. It just I was like Oh, shit, man. Man. When I was like, what I call like cave mode, I just don't think about anything else, man.

Nico: 37:29

I don't go to the gym. I don't clean up. I it's just I just work.

Dago: 37:34

You sit on the toilet so you don't even have to move to take a shit. Like, it's like everything is set.

Nico: 37:38

That that pretty much that. Yeah. So it's Okay. And at the end of that, I remember I had trouble talking with people. My social skills, I I was like, like, you

Dago: 37:49

know, my brain

Nico: 37:49

dead, but it's just yeah. So it's like

Dago: 37:52

You were working so many hours, and for now, you haven't made it yet. If you compare this to a job, you know, and and that's the pain. That's, like, the struggle. Like, you would have made the same money, like, with just 1 year at a job, like, chilling, kind of, or, like, freelancing as, like, an ad guy. It's like a video game on hard mode.

Dago: 38:10

I love the game Doom, and they made a new version in 2016. And in Doom, like, you know, even the original one, they had, like, all these crazy difficulty levels. If you play the game in normal mode, you can play, like, any game, any FPS. You can play, like, Halo, like Call of Duty. Like, if you play nightmare mode, you have to come to be running away all the time.

Dago: 38:29

You cannot stop moving, else enemies will hit you instantly. My brain had to completely change, and it took me about a 100 hours to complete it instead of, like, 20. When you're in this, like, we remove every assist, we remove every helper. It feels like now it's real, you know? You don't have like somebody making you believe that you got it.

Dago: 38:51

You don't have someone, Yeah, it's fine. You're doing good, but you're not. You know? But you don't know, but you think you're good, but you're not.

Nico: 38:58

Yeah. It's I mean, it's pretty much, like, what you see is what you get. Like, if you don't see the sales on the Stripe dashboard, then you suck. That's just how it is. That's why it's, you know, roller coaster because when you're doing good, it's all on you.

Nico: 39:10

It's you made stuff that's And that is succeeded. You are good. You get so much peak and low. It's actually, like, hard to manage sometimes because one day you were, like, the top of the world. You made the money and stuff.

Nico: 39:22

And the next day, like, you don't make any sense. You don't understand why you just fucking you feel like you fucking sucks.

Dago: 39:27

Gonna make me bridge to like the topic of love, which is the last topic I wanted to talk to you about. And right now, you know, I'm single again, and I had been 12 years with the same woman. Between I was 21 and 34, I was with her. And that gives you such a certainty in kind of, like, you know, feeling like somebody loves you and you have kind of, like, a family and shit. And so I I'm divorcing her now and, like, I'm alone for, like, a couple months.

Dago: 39:55

And it's brutal. And sometimes it feels so lonely and it feels so scary. You have rejection in your face all the time. And I feel like it's the same. Like Yeah.

Dago: 40:04

You're facing reality.

Nico: 40:07

I think there are lots of things in common between, you know, like relationships, love and stuff, and entrepreneurship. Because you need to get used to to failure, basically, to rejection, at least. So it's like, you know, in a relationship, it's like, oh, okay. You ask on a date and she said no something. Or in business, it's like, okay.

Nico: 40:28

You try your best. It doesn't work.

Dago: 40:30

That's it.

Nico: 40:30

Managing the the low and the high is really good skill to have. I think that's, I I learned that by, you know, reading, you know, stoicism. And that's still something I need to work out because when there is a high, I'm, like, super happy and stuff. And if you are super happy when you get sales and stuff, you will get super depressed when you don't.

Dago: 40:53

It's because you have an illusion in your head. You think is it gonna save you? You know? Oh, if she wants to see me, oh, if we have sex, like if you're a man, it's always that. So, oh, if we have sex, like everything's gonna be perfect.

Dago: 41:04

Like this kind of shit. But this is an illusion. Like this is like, you think it's gonna take you to like this ultimate place of freedom and happiness. And it's just like making sales. Like you're gonna get, Oh, wow.

Dago: 41:15

I made like a thousand in sales in like 2 hours or like one day. And like, my life is complete now. And then like, you know, a couple hours later, you realize, you have, I don't know, post nut clarity or something. What now? Oh, no.

Dago: 41:29

My life is the same. And like and the problem is when you get the high, you can make mistakes. Because now because you're you're high on, like, the success, whether it's with a woman or, like, with your company or whatever. And you maybe you get cocky, you get too confident, and you start making stupid moves, or maybe you just stop doing the things that brought you here in the first place. With women, it's so common.

Dago: 41:57

You play it cool, Like, she's interested in you, and then she gives you some attention. And you, like, start, like, being like, losing your shit and, like, losing your purpose and your clarity, and you go all about her, and then she lose interest. And I feel like it's the same, you know?

Nico: 42:12

It's man, story, story of my life. I mentioned before, you know, with e commerce, I got some success and I stopped working. I was like, wow, I'm at the top of the world. I'm in Bali, I have a massive villa. You know, I was dating a lot back then, which was new for me.

Nico: 42:26

So I had all this dopamine. I was like, you know, because in both case, when you make sales, when you date, you you get validated. It's like, wow. I'm actually I'm good. Like, you know?

Nico: 42:36

So, yeah, you you get this validation. And as you said, if you stop doing what brought you here in the first place, then it's it's all going to leave. You need to learn to sort of detach yourself. It's like, oh, okay. This is good, but, you know, let's not just make stupid move and stuff like that.

Nico: 42:52

Let's not get carried on. My relationship with my girlfriend now, when we started, I had like still some some time is to have the client and stuff. And, you know, we spent lots of, time together. We went on cool dates and stuff, and then suddenly I lost my, my income. So So I was like, okay, forgot.

Nico: 43:10

Now I have 1 year of savings. So I need to really try out.

Dago: 43:13

But that's Did this impact your relationship?

Nico: 43:16

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. And because that was also when I was at the peak of my physical shape.

Nico: 43:22

So, basically, she got me at the peak and then everything after, you know, was not shit, but, like, it's just, I my mind was not here and it's still not here, until I

Dago: 43:33

So you basically stopped giving her attention. You stopped being present. And you started looking like I

Nico: 43:38

was just asking.

Dago: 43:39

Trying to check. Kind of like Yeah.

Nico: 43:42

Like the looking, it took it took some time, especially for the physical part. But, yeah, pretty much. I was lucky because she had to leave back to the US for, you know, some time. So we did long distance. But I think if she was here, we she would have we would have broken up.

Nico: 43:58

Because, I was just doing I could not, you know, go on dates every week and stuff like that. It's just not possible. It's not compatible. At some point, I was like, look, I I need to get my sheet together. It's going to take me at least 1 year, so we should just stop.

Nico: 44:11

And she was like, no. It's okay. Don't worry. I understand. Blah blah blah.

Nico: 44:15

But even if she say I understand, it's like she still expect, you know, you know, normal couple of things, you know, talking and stuff like that. But my mind is not here. It's just it's just not here. I I'm I cannot do 2 things at the same time.

Dago: 44:30

I'm a big fan of David Data, and he talks about feminine energy and masculine energy. And basically, most men have mostly masculine energy. Most women have mostly feminine energy. You can have, you know, both. So it's not about saying men are this way and women are this way, but like usually that's how it is.

Dago: 44:48

When you have a lot of masculine energy, so like you, for example, you cannot do 2 things at once. Like, your attention is about focus. And people with more feminine energy, so usually probably your girlfriend, they can do 2 things at once or like 3 or 5. And I had this with my ex. It's like, they don't really get it because for them it's normal.

Dago: 45:08

You can still work and talk to me. And we're like, no, I can't. Yeah. I fucking can't. Because I see as soon as I talk to you, I lose like half an hour to get back to my focus.

Nico: 45:18

In my opinion, it's very hard, especially when, again, you need to bridge the gap between what you are right now, and what you need to become to to be successful as an entrepreneur. Like once you get things figured out, you you can take more time and stuff like that. But it's just yeah. It's really, really hard. It's really fucking hard.

Nico: 45:37

My plan was to do all the big work before, so all the programming and stuff like that before she come. And when she come, just do like a bit of SEO and stuff. It doesn't work like that. Even when I'm not working, my mind is still, it's still in there.

Dago: 45:50

You're building your kind of like empire or something. And so you need to be focused and that's your priority and that's your purpose.

Nico: 45:56

I think no one can really understand what is it to be like in the trenches, you know, like

Dago: 46:01

Yeah.

Nico: 46:02

It's just, I don't think anyone who didn't do it can understand. It's just, it's totally different. Like your mind is just, it's in there. There is nothing else.

Dago: 46:12

That's one of the reasons I ended up divorcing my ex after all this time is I realized, basically, if you really want a really awesome relationship, at least give it attention 1 or 2 hours a day. Like, it's like really something you gotta do. You gotta think about it. Like, when she needs you, you gotta be there. And it's normal.

Dago: 46:31

It makes sense. I'm not saying but like, eventually, I was like, yeah, I don't wanna do that. That's so selfish, I feel like, especially after all this time together, but I was like, you know what? I wanna build my own shit. I wanna travel.

Dago: 46:44

I wanna be free of everything. And I feel like I need that if I can, you know, accomplish something with my life. Yeah. Do the things that I want to do. I feel like now everybody wants to be in a relationship.

Dago: 46:56

Like, we all want to be like and I used to be like that when I was younger. I was like, I wanted a girlfriend. I didn't see my life without like a girlfriend or anything. I didn't imagine it. Now I'm like, it can be good also to be like, yeah, I'm gonna be alone.

Dago: 47:10

Like, it's so challenging, as I said earlier, because then, you know, like, you feel like the loneliness and you feel like the rejection all the time, like and the highs and lows. But I feel like this is a way to grow, man. Like, this is like how you can really grow. I feel like I'm growing so much. It's crazy.

Dago: 47:25

Sometimes I think I'm something and I'm like, oh yeah, that was like 1 year ago. And that was actually like 2 months ago. It's like, I'm like so always kind of like burning in like the growth and the challenge of life of being alone and being indie now again. It should be kind of like, okay, that we have that, you know, for like a time in our life.

Nico: 47:46

My ex, I, separated with her, before I left. And the moment I left, man, it's insane. I grew like crazy. Like so many things. Like, I never traveled.

Nico: 48:00

I was like, okay. I I'm just going to go to a random country alone. Path. I went to Mexico, like, just, you know, just there's a just like that. And I tried many things that were scaring me.

Nico: 48:11

Like I was I was doing panic attack in the sea, like, you know, which I don't I hate not seeing what's under me. So I was like, okay, fuck it. I'm going to take my diving license directly, you know. And, like, I don't know why. It's just I would never been able to never have been able to do that if I stayed with her.

Nico: 48:31

Long distance relationship is actually a good compromise because she's in the US. So it's just there is like 1 hour or 2 hours per day where we can text.

Dago: 48:39

She lives in the perfect place where, like, she can only annoy me for 1 hour a day. No, I'm kidding. But, you know, that's kind of like Yeah.

Nico: 48:46

I know. But

Dago: 48:47

No. That's kind of like

Nico: 48:47

Yeah. Because because yeah. If if she send a text, like, I want to reply, you know. It's and Yeah. If I get I but I also cannot get distracted by text every like, 20 minutes.

Nico: 48:59

Otherwise, I just don't work. It's just, I don't work at all. She's an amazing person. So I really want to, you know, to keep going. But I don't know if, that's going to work at the end because of my focus and stuff.

Nico: 49:12

It works for me. For her, I think it's shit.

Dago: 49:15

I really think it's shit. Oh, okay. Oh, shit. Yeah. Okay.

Nico: 49:17

Yeah. It's like she's she's really understanding, but that's the reason why I wanted to to break up, you know, because like, a friend of mine did that. He he just broke up with his ex, and now he's focusing on business, and now business is taking off.

Dago: 49:32

There's, like, a lot of bridges in this kind of, like, adventure. It's funny. Every time I talk to to a guy who is, like, in the indie community, who is around my age, he's telling me, oh, yeah. I used to do pick up and, like, pee away when I was younger. You know, all these things, so how to date and how to get laid and shit.

Dago: 49:48

And I feel like there's so many bridges in, like, building your own shit and women.

Nico: 49:53

Man, it's, it's like, literally, I applied the same process for dating

Dago: 49:58

than entrepreneurship.

Nico: 49:59

Like, literally, so I never really dated. Always, you know, socially, like awkward and stuff. So for me, I didn't know how to do a date. So I picked up a book, you know, like how to date and stuff like that. I read lots of stuff.

Nico: 50:12

Like if I was learning a new skill for my company, you know, it's like, okay, I need to learn these skills, those social skills. And, yeah, I just pick a book and now okay. Now I need to practice. And I think, man, I went into like from 0 date per year because I was not dating after my ex. Every week I had a new date because I wanted to, you know, to improve my process and

Dago: 50:34

solve it. Exactly. Yeah. Passive and come dating or something. Yeah.

Dago: 50:39

I see what I mean.

Nico: 50:40

It's yeah. It's at work. Like, it's the same as making a business. Like I made 17 apps in a year. I think that's funny.

Nico: 50:46

I think that I'm not sure if I did 17 days. I don't know.

Dago: 50:50

But That's so funny. Yeah. I quit

Nico: 50:52

a lot. But I did a lot. And now I can ship any app I want. I did lots of date. Now I can I'm very comfortable dating.

Nico: 51:00

I know how it works. I know the social codes of social.

Dago: 51:03

If you need a girlfriend, you can find 1, basically. Now, kind of like Yeah. Yeah. If you need to make money, you can make money. So that's like Yeah.

Dago: 51:10

That's interesting.

Nico: 51:11

But I think money is still money is still a bit harder. Like, no other

Dago: 51:14

Because you don't put a picture with your fat in your belly. Yeah. I'm kidding. I'm kidding you. Yeah.

Dago: 51:23

So, yeah, iterate, learn, and keep getting better. Yeah. I'm actually I've never used an app because Tinder didn't exist when I meet my ex that's how long ago it was So I feel like as soon as I start this game, I'm gonna be like, okay, I'm gonna play the algorithm game. I'm gonna do I mean, I'm gonna try to win. Once you have this kind of game, you wanna win.

Dago: 51:49

Especially now that dating is depending on apps as well. So like it's digital now. I mean, so like you can apply the same principles because it's like all digital.

Nico: 52:00

Look. I did, my Tinder profile back then was optimized for conversion rates. Try a normal profile and then optimize it. Man, I swear the difference is insane.

Dago: 52:11

Yeah. I bet.

Nico: 52:12

Because Especially

Dago: 52:12

since most men, they don't do that. So like, it's like, you stand out. You stand out

Nico: 52:17

so much. And it's always the same opening line and stuff. So I play that on my copy, like my description. I was like, oh, but are you sure you really want to, you know, swipe right, match with Kevin and say, hey, how are you doing? Or something like that.

Dago: 52:32

Yeah. Okay. I Empathize with the pain. With the pain.

Nico: 52:35

Yeah. Yeah. Like I optimize like that, you know, and man, it's just a massive difference. It was so funny back then. I think when I started, I made slides with, testimonials sort of.

Nico: 52:49

It was fake, but like, oh, such an inspiring guy. Like, Ryan Reynolds.

Dago: 52:53

Yeah. Yeah.

Nico: 52:53

Exactly. Yeah.

Dago: 52:54

You make fun of that. The one I'm doing now is basically all testimonials of women who I had sex with. That's like the my ID for attend on the like, that's my ID for my profile. It's like, oh, wow. He was so sweet.

Dago: 53:06

Like or like with, like, the name of the girl. And, you know, I even have my ex in there. Like, he's probably gonna get mad, but like and I also had FOMO. Like, I'm only in town until like this time, even though it's fake. You know?

Dago: 53:18

But, like, you know, all the same shit. Like, I haven't launched it yet, but, like, I think in a couple of months, I will. But, yeah, so funny. I'm DM ing a couple women, and and I'm using memes. I'm using so many memes.

Dago: 53:31

I'm creating so many memes to kind of, like, you know, give up more attention. Yeah. And, like and I literally spent the weekend creating memes for this for this for this girl I'm seeing. Because, like, we basically went on a date and I fucked it up. I came off way too strong.

Dago: 53:45

I was way too horny and shit. And so that was like a big turn off for her. And she like kind of like told me, but then I made memes making fun of myself, you know, and I sent her. And I was so awesome to kind of, like, diffuse the situation, make her see. I I really gave a shit.

Dago: 54:02

And I'm actually thinking of an app for, like, using memes in dating apps, but, like, I don't know how I can make that. But because, like, memes give you, like, a level of emotion that you don't have with text when you DM. Maybe I'll do how to dominate Tinder. That would be awesome. Yeah.

Dago: 54:18

You know?

Nico: 54:18

I was going to suggest it, like Yeah.

Dago: 54:21

Yeah. That would

Nico: 54:22

be fun. You have the bonus like, memes and stuff.

Dago: 54:25

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I think we covered it man. That was so awesome getting you on the show. I mean, I really love talking about all these topics with you. I hope people would appreciate it, you know, when they listen to it.

Nico: 54:38

Like, that's why I think lots of people, you know, they try, they give up, they become super depressed. And the thing is, again, like, I they don't realize, but that happened to even like to, to me, to, to everyone, like to the best and stuff. Like, I think I told you that by DM, there was a day after I launched Dolch notes. So the sales went and then it went very slow. I was so fucking depressed.

Nico: 54:59

I spent like a day. I was a fucking vegetable. I think this day I spend 1 hour in my shower, just like, like that laying down with water. Oh, okay.

Dago: 55:08

Yeah.

Nico: 55:08

And like, I just, I could barely move, man. I could barely move and that kind of day happens. So it's like, you just don't give up because it feels like shit. It's just

Dago: 55:20

It's no more than it feels like shit,

Nico: 55:21

basically. It will. And if it doesn't, it means you're probably not trained hard enough.

Dago: 55:26

Like, it's just life. Life just gonna hit. Like, some days it rains, some days it's sunny. Like, it's just life. And maybe you're not connected to the real thing if it's not happening.

Nico: 55:35

If you're just, you know, you're just posting on Twitter, you have a side job and stuff like that, and you don't feel like crap. Like, oh, maybe one day I will I will launch one day, blah, blah, blah. But you you don't do anything that might cause you this pain, you know? So

Dago: 55:50

Yeah. You're not yeah. You're not challenging yourself or something. Yeah. Yeah.

Dago: 55:53

Yeah. Awesome. And kind of like getting used to, I mean, accepting feeling like shit, like accepting the this pain. And it doesn't mean like not fighting it, but it means like accepting that it's there and being okay with this feeling and then being able to act, you know, and, you know, not get not collapse, but not become cocky when you succeed. Kind of like stoicism that you talked about.

Dago: 56:22

Yeah.

Nico: 56:22

Man, I I think everyone should read stoicism.

Dago: 56:26

Yeah. Did you have a book you recommend about that for people?

Nico: 56:30

Oh, yeah. 100%. I read it this morning. It's it's called The Daily Stoic. So it's like one chapter every day.

Nico: 56:37

It's like 1 page. You read 1 page every day, and each page has like a a lesson or so forth.

Dago: 56:42

Oh, nice.

Nico: 56:43

It's really easy to read. It's based on, like, the ancient writings from the Greek philosopher and stuff, but interpreted by a guy, like, from today, like, modern day. So you have, like, one little paragraph very short about what he said back then and how to interpret it. It's just it's amazing. Like, the daily story.

Nico: 57:04

It's fucking amazing.

Dago: 57:06

Awesome. So where can people find you? Like, if you wanna know more, like I bet on Twitter or something or x?

Nico: 57:12

Obviously, on Twitter, Nico Jinen. And I have my blog, Jinen.com, where I post lots of stuff. And, actually, like, I would recommend checking my article, like, called, So You Suck, Know What? I will, maybe she can put the link, because that's really one article I really

Dago: 57:30

Okay.

Nico: 57:31

Think is useful. So, so yeah. But, yeah, basically, Twitter. Might give a shot to YouTube soon. So same, YouTube, Nico Jinane.

Nico: 57:40

I have, like, a very old channel from when I started entrepreneurship. That was in French. So it's like a young me, like a skinny, no beard. And, so yeah. But, I will try to maybe make a new video if I can find some time.

Dago: 57:55

Awesome, man. So before we wrap up, I just want to mention to people that I opened the indie hotline. If you go to indilifepod.com to, like, share what you're going through, like, the pains, like, we talked about, you know, love life, personal life, struggles, whatever it is. And then, you know, I'm gonna pick a couple a week, like, depending on how many submissions I get and put them on the show and react to it because I think it can be really interesting. It's even possible to do it anonymously because I have a friend who's like going through a lot of shit, but like she can't talk about it because she's selling her business.

Dago: 58:29

So she might do it anonymously. So if you're going through shit with your business and you want to talk about it, you can do that. That's all for me, man. That was so cool to have you. So, you know, thanks again.

Nico: 58:41

Thanks for inviting me. It was really nice talking about all that with you.

Dago: 58:45

Awesome, man. Cheers.

Nico: 58:47

Cheers.